A Slower Death

[Opal]

Would this be a slower death: If instead of being crucified vertically, the cross was bent at lets say a 45 degree angle?

The pressure on the shoulders and the abdomen would seem to be less, because the subject would be more pressed against the cross. Would it take longer for them to die?

 

[Deleted member jedakk]

Theoretically yes, all things being equal it would probably end up being death by exposure, i.e. hypothermia, dehydration, etc. more than fatigue and asphyxiation. It seems probable but no way to know for sure.

 

[Opal]

Theoretically yes, all things being equal it would probably end up being death by exposure, i.e. hypothermia, dehydration, etc. more than fatigue and asphyxiation. It seems probable but no way to know for sure.

 

[Opal]

But if one was able to counteract the factors of exposure and dehydration by water or heat etc, would the subject still die more slowly as a result of asphyxation?

 

[Deleted member jedakk]

But if one was able to counteract the factors of exposure and dehydration by water or heat etc, would the subject still die more slowly as a result of asphyxation?

Supposing that was possible, then it would depend on whether the angle of the cross was sufficiently steep to overcome the coefficient of static friction, i.e. the resistance of the body to sliding downward along the face of the cross. If there's never any pull against the victim's arms, then asphyxiation is probably not a factor. He'd probably die more slowly, but from what I don't know.

 

[Opal]

Supposing that was possible, then it would depend on whether the angle of the cross was sufficiently steep to overcome the coefficient of static friction

Maybe it would need to be slightly more than 45 degrees to the ground, maybe 50, but there's no way of testing it.

 

[mp5stab]

Well... not really. The simplest way to explain what jedakk is talking about is to visualize it as an experiment. In the experiment, we would like to determine if the angle of the cross slows the aproach of death. So we nail nine people (that can all be beautiful women if you'd like) to horizontal crosses at the same time. We then raise their crosses all to different angles from 10 to 90 in increments of 10 degrees. The woman who is raised to ten degrees is the first to stop, and she's basically just lying on the cross. Same deal with twenty, then thirty, fourty for the most part. The shallower angles can sit or lie on their crosses. But as the steeper angled crosses continue to rotate, the victims slip. That's what he's talking about when he says coefficient of friction, you need an angle steep enough to get past that slip point. Gravity will continue to pull you directly down, and the cross is less of an obstacle. Due to this 10-50 are likely to die of exposure more than dying from the exhaustion and suffocation brought by the cross itself.

 

[Opal]

Well that is my point - those on a shallower angle are less likely to die of the normal crucifixion death - asphyxiation or exhaustion - than those at a steeper angle. If the shoulders are taking the weight then it does not matter how much the subejct is care for in terms of the prevention of exposure - they are still going to die.

 

[old slave]

In my story "it" the land had no wood and my criminals were crucified on the ground with metal spikes driven into the earth; I pictured them dying of exposure and dehydration.

But if one was able to counteract the factors of exposure and dehydration by water or heat etc

I have a feeling that prolonged immobility of the limbs does a body no good. I'm no physiologist, but perhaps there are people who could explain better than me. DVT on aircraft is the popular example.

Also if nails are used, would infection become important? Normal skin bacteria are probably irrelevant up to three days, just giving additional inflammation and pus to an already horrible wound, but after that it'll be septicaemia, with the bugs getting to lungs, heart, kidneys etc, death soon following without treatment. But if the organism is Clostridium perfringens, commonly found in soil, gangrene will occur which is quickly fatal.

So if you want a really slow death after crucifixion, hydration, clot-busters and antibiotics at least will be needed.

 

[Opal]

Personally I would want them to be in a position where they could be instantly relieved of their inevitable demise, so relief from suffocation would be the best way for them to accept my attentions.

I am sorry but medical attention about scepimia or exposure does not work for me.

 

[Loxuru]

Crucial to the asphyxiation question, to my opinion, is the lack of support of the body, other than the nails.

I sometimes imagine being crucified as constantly 'falling' from the cross, but prevented to do so by the nails. The whole bodily weight is constantly pulled downward. I think there is a critical angle, at which the stipes does no longer provide support by static friction (the condemned ‘rests’ on the stipes all the time), and another one at which the condemned can no longer seek active support when trying to pull up (which could also lengthen the agony, but will ultimately end up in asphyxiation due to exhaustion). How long, will of course depend a lot on the weight and the physical condition of the condemned. Eliminating exhausture, resulting into asphyxiation, as in a vertical position, will obviously lengthen the agony.


Actually, when the condemned is left on an inclined cross, providing continuous support to the back and shoulders, you actually get another kind of execution and agony process than ‘crucifixion’ properly.

 

[Opal]

I sometimes imagine being crucified as constantly 'falling' from the cross, but prevented to do so by the nails. The whole bodily weight is constantly pulled downward. I think there is a critical angle, at which the stipes does no longer provide support by static friction (the condemned ‘rests’ on the stipes all the time), and another one at which the condemned can no longer seek active support when trying to pull up (which could also lengthen the agony, but will ultimately end up in asphyxiation due to exhaustion). How long, will of course depend a lot on the weight and the physical condition of the condemned. Eliminating exhausture, resulting into asphyxiation, as in a vertical position, will obviously lengthen the agony.

 

[windar]

Well... not really. The simplest way to explain what jedakk is talking about is to visualize it as an experiment. In the experiment, we would like to determine if the angle of the cross slows the aproach of death. So we nail nine people (that can all be beautiful women if you'd like) to horizontal crosses at the same time. We then raise their crosses all to different angles from 10 to 90 in increments of 10 degrees. The woman who is raised to ten degrees is the first to stop, and she's basically just lying on the cross. Same deal with twenty, then thirty, fourty for the most part. The shallower angles can sit or lie on their crosses. But as the steeper angled crosses continue to rotate, the victims slip. That's what he's talking about when he says coefficient of friction, you need an angle steep enough to get past that slip point. Gravity will continue to pull you directly down, and the cross is less of an obstacle. Due to this 10-50 are likely to die of exposure more than dying from the exhaustion and suffocation brought by the cross itself.

I foresee BIG problems getting this clinical trial approved by the Ethical Committee. And I won't even mention the FDA.

 

[old slave]

I foresee BIG problems getting this clinical trial approved by the Ethical Committee. And I won't even mention the FDA.

Just do what all the big companies do for phase one, use an impoverished 3rd world nation.

 

[Wragg]

I wonder if the main 'point' of crucifixion for the ancients was not to cause death by inflicting injury, as such, but to cause death by exposure. Therefore immobilising the victim anyhow, vertically or horizontally, must eventually bring death simply because the victim has no access to drink water, or because they are exposed to low overnight temperatures which cannot be survived on successive nights. If nights were warm they'd just have to die of thirst.
.
Nudity, clearly, both enhances the exposure and enables humiliation, as does their suspension on a cross above the general population.

Inflicting injury, flagellation, nailing, breaking legs, whatever, may simply speed up the process.

I began to wonder that when I heard about the practice of leaving unwanted infants outside until they died, a common if barbaric practice; unless the infant was then collected by someone who wanted them. Lucky Moses.

Other than that I have absolutely no evidence for such conjecture, so feel free to laugh.

 

[windar]

I wonder if the main 'point' of crucifixion for the ancients was not to cause death by inflicting injury, as such, but to cause death by exposure. Therefore immobilising the victim anyhow, vertically or horizontally, must eventually bring death simply because the victim has no access to drink water, or because they are exposed to low overnight temperatures which cannot be survived on successive nights. If nights were warm they'd just have to die of thirst.
.
Nudity, clearly, both enhances the exposure and enables humiliation, as does their suspension on a cross above the general population.

Inflicting injury, flagellation, nailing, breaking legs, whatever, may simply speed up the process.

I began to wonder that when I heard about the practice of leaving unwanted infants outside until they died, a common if barbaric practice; unless the infant was then collected by someone who wanted them. Lucky Moses.

Other than that I have absolutely no evidence for such conjecture, so feel free to laugh.

If immobilization was all you wanted there would be no need for fancy French crucifixion wood; just tie them to a tree and leave them. Of course, then the symbol of Christianity wouldn't be a cross, it would be a Tree

But the ability of the human body to survive even very dicey situations is quite extraordinary, as demonstrated by the infamous case of Aron Ralston who survived 127 hours pinned immobile in a Utah slot canyon and had to cut of his own arm with a knife to escape https://www.outsideonline.com/1927626/trapped. But he's OK and got to have James Franco play him in the movie.

Which makes you wonder, how many people survived crucifixion. I presume the authorities left them up there for some set time and if nobody was moving anymore, took them down. With the medical technology of the day-no EKGs, EEGs, not even stethoscopes, it would have been very easy to think an unconscious person was dead and turn them over to their families. And it's not hard to imagine some subset of those who were merely unconscious waking up and getting on with life. Maybe that explains how Barb keeps coming back.

 

[Wragg]

If immobilization was all you wanted there would be no need for fancy French crucifixion wood; just tie them to a tree and leave them. Of course, then the symbol of Christianity wouldn't be a cross, it would be a Tree

But the ability of the human body to survive even very dicey situations is quite extraordinary, as demonstrated by the infamous case of Aron Ralston who survived 127 hours pinned immobile in a Utah slot canyon and had to cut of his own arm with a knife to escape https://www.outsideonline.com/1927626/trapped. But he's OK and got to have James Franco play him in the movie.

Which makes you wonder, how many people survived crucifixion. I presume the authorities left them up there for some set time and if nobody was moving anymore, took them down. With the medical technology of the day-no EKGs, EEGs, not even stethoscopes, it would have been very easy to think an unconscious person was dead and turn them over to their families. And it's not hard to imagine some subset of those who were merely unconscious waking up and getting on with life. Maybe that explains how Barb keeps coming back.

Or it might be Conanianity...

 

[old slave]

But the ability of the human body to survive even very dicey situations is quite extraordinary,

I agree given the fit and healthy person in question, quite extraordinary story.

I still think once we're up to several days in a crucifixion infection starts to play it's part. Scourging first, the skin is broken in many places with a device not cleaned from one person to the next, dropped on the dirt between condemned. Plenty of opportunity for bacteria to grow on the congealed blood sticking to the whip between people. Next use, nice big dose into the new wound.

Nails. Expensive metal, so re-used between people, no cleaning, again a nutritious medium of blood and body fluids for the bacteria already in the wound to continue multiplying between victims. Warm climate, good growth. Bugs like Clostridia sporulate, survive really well no matter what environmental conditions are. So again, hammering that nail in is equivalent to injecting a huge dose of bacteria.

Add in weakened immune system from days of torture, abuse, starvation etc, and any previous untreated wounds caused by capture or battle, and by about three days a nailed victim would be pretty sick.

 

[windar]

I agree given the fit and healthy person in question, quite extraordinary story.

I still think once we're up to several days in a crucifixion infection starts to play it's part. Scourging first, the skin is broken in many places with a device not cleaned from one person to the next, dropped on the dirt between condemned. Plenty of opportunity for bacteria to grow on the congealed blood sticking to the whip between people. Next use, nice big dose into the new wound.

Nails. Expensive metal, so re-used between people, no cleaning, again a nutritious medium of blood and body fluids for the bacteria already in the wound to continue multiplying between victims. Warm climate, good growth. Bugs like Clostridia sporulate, survive really well no matter what environmental conditions are. So again, hammering that nail in is equivalent to injecting a huge dose of bacteria.

Add in weakened immune system from days of torture, abuse, starvation etc, and any previous untreated wounds caused by capture or battle, and by about three days a nailed victim would be pretty sick.

Now hold on here. They're reusing that stuff? After I, your humble servant, Antonius Windarius, greased the palm of every two-bit official from Paris to Palestine and bought the Emperor a brand new chariot all in order to get the contract to supply scourges and nails on the basis that they would buy a new one from me each time? This is an outrage!

 

[culus]

Now hold on here. They're reusing that stuff? After I, your humble servant, Antonius Windarius, greased the palm of every two-bit official from Paris to Palestine and bought the Emperor a brand new chariot all in order to get the contract to supply scourges and nails on the basis that they would buy a new one from me each time? This is an outrage!

How terribly ungrateful!