morten sigurdson
Voivode of Wallachia
Agree with you.
-
Sign up or login, and you'll have full access to opportunities of forum.
Alice, Daughter of Barabbas
- Thread starter Wragg
- Start date
"Good choice," grunted Pilate. "Get yourself back to Nazareth and keep your head down! Let him go!"
Some soldiers hustled the Nazarene out, and Pilate glared at the centurion.
"Well? What are you waiting for? Take this woman and crucify her!"
"NOOOO!" Alice heard her father's wail from behind her. Joseph Barabbas had done his utmost to save his daughter, even trying to convince the Romans that he'd killed the Roman. But the blood on her robe told its own tale. Now he, too, experienced the crushing disappointment of having had her reprieve dashed into the gutter.
They tied her arms to the cross-piece, and forced her out into the narrow, crowded street. Alice groaned beneath the weight. Behind her, she was aware that two men would be keeping her company when she reached Golgotha. Briefly, she wondered what they had done, but she soon forgot them. She had troubles enough of her own.
It would have been a struggle to get through this crowd walking alone on a good day. Staggering beneath this beam towards an agonising death , in a state of near terror, Alice could barely make forward progress.
And the noise! People shrieking, cackling with laughter, taunting her. One mad woman started pulling at her robe.
"No! Get off me! Leave me alone!"
The centurion was hitting her with his club, trying to make her go faster, but it was no good.
She sank to her knees beneath the huge beam.
"Oh, fuck this for a game!" The centurion's patience had vapourised. "We'll be here till nightfall!"
"Oi! You!" He singled out a reasonably fit looking man in the crowd. "Got a job for you!"
"What?"
"Carry something for a lady."
They cut through the ropes, and lifted the weight from Alice's shoulders.
The stranger took the burden, and they resumed the trek towards the crucifixion ground at Golgotha.
Some soldiers hustled the Nazarene out, and Pilate glared at the centurion.
"Well? What are you waiting for? Take this woman and crucify her!"
"NOOOO!" Alice heard her father's wail from behind her. Joseph Barabbas had done his utmost to save his daughter, even trying to convince the Romans that he'd killed the Roman. But the blood on her robe told its own tale. Now he, too, experienced the crushing disappointment of having had her reprieve dashed into the gutter.
They tied her arms to the cross-piece, and forced her out into the narrow, crowded street. Alice groaned beneath the weight. Behind her, she was aware that two men would be keeping her company when she reached Golgotha. Briefly, she wondered what they had done, but she soon forgot them. She had troubles enough of her own.
It would have been a struggle to get through this crowd walking alone on a good day. Staggering beneath this beam towards an agonising death , in a state of near terror, Alice could barely make forward progress.
And the noise! People shrieking, cackling with laughter, taunting her. One mad woman started pulling at her robe.
"No! Get off me! Leave me alone!"
The centurion was hitting her with his club, trying to make her go faster, but it was no good.
She sank to her knees beneath the huge beam.
"Oh, fuck this for a game!" The centurion's patience had vapourised. "We'll be here till nightfall!"
"Oi! You!" He singled out a reasonably fit looking man in the crowd. "Got a job for you!"
"What?"
"Carry something for a lady."
They cut through the ropes, and lifted the weight from Alice's shoulders.
The stranger took the burden, and they resumed the trek towards the crucifixion ground at Golgotha.
Ramengmawiaaa
Magistrate
How gentlemanly of the guy to carry the cross for the lady! Hopefully this means she won't be so tired and will hang on the cross for long.
I should say at this point that the little 'Wragg' motif on the manips, and on my sigstrip below, was made for me many years ago by Phlebas. I've been very fond of it, and shall continue to use it.
Cheers, Phlebas!
Happy to oblige, and pleased that it brings you happiness
Is that London Pride we're clinking in the graphic?Nice little story and very effective pictures. You know, it's fashionable in some church circles to take stories from scripture and change the gender, to make them more personal for female listeners. I'm sure this one is almost right for that exercise, except for the little switcheroo of Barabbas for Christ. Unfortunately the name Barabbas means "son of the father", which is pretty odd in itself and unfortunately inappropriate in this context. Maybe someone with more Hebrew than I have could suggest an alternative?
I've often wondered, how many of the ladies watching the average Passion Play see themselves in the roll of the crucified rather than the bereaved?
Last edited:
Ramengmawiaaa
Magistrate
Well Paris used to be a boy's name recently but now it has become feminine. It doesn't take away the enjoyment factor for me personally. Great that phlebas is pointing that out though it would help future story writers.
You betcha!
Bob and I have been discussing this in a PM, hence the reference to 'Joseph Barabbas', and I'll leave it for him to reply more fully. Clearly for the premise of the story I needed to replace Barabbas with a woman.
I think the Anglicised version would be 'Alice Patterson'
Ramengmawiaaa
Magistrate
Well people been given or taken their male relatives' names before out of respect or tradition. Does that happen among Jews though?
xso
Tribune
Thank's for this great story W! Nice manips and this genre is my favorite one..........also a very nice model!
'Names are often given after relatives, among the Ashkenazim only after deceased relatives...
a child may have two or more names after different relatives' Louis Jacobs 'Concise Companion to the Jewish Religion'.
He also mentions that traditionally the mother chooses the name for the first-born, father for the second, though Nahmanides said it should be the other way about. In Luke's Gospel, Elizabeth's 'neighbours and cousins' expect her baby to be called Zacharias after his father, but she says he should be called John. They say 'there is none of thy kindred that is called by that name', and ask the (temporarily dumb) Zacharias to write what the child should be named, he confirms the name John, and regains his power of speech. Jesus, on the other hand, is given his name in advance by the angel at the Annunciation, Matthew and Luke simply state that, but presumably when he was born, Mary rather than Joseph said what he would be named.
clever, but that's actually Patrick's son 
Last edited:
Ramengmawiaaa
Magistrate
Wow Eul thanks so much for the info ^^
bobinder
ARTISAN
Lots of information is coming in, some of which may challenge my theories, but here goes...
As observed by Phlebas, the name, 'Barabbas' translates as, 'son of a father' (Bar Abba) and there is a theory that it was used as a popular false name by Jews who were challenged by the Romans. E.g. 'Who are you?' Answer, 'Barabbas', which would be quite truthful, if unhelpful, and it was assumed that the Romans wouldn't know any better (they probably did.) But of course 'son of a father' literally only works for a male.
I am not an expert on names or languages, and so I would welcome any thoughts here from those who are.
Ancient Aramaic is an obscure language, but appears to be related to Hebrew.
The written forms do not assist me with pronunciation, but perhaps we can make some educated guesses.
Naming among Jews in the Bible, as elsewhere, is about identifying particular individuals, since many names are very common (e.g. the number of Marys.) Sometimes individuals are specified by relationship e.g. 'Mary the mother of Jesus'. Alternatively, 'Mary Magdalene' may be a full name, title, or 'Mary from Magdala' etc.
One of the most common names was, 'Jesus' (Yeshu) because this is a popular derivation of 'Joshua' (Yeshua.)
Jesus is generally identified as 'Jesus of Nazareth' or 'The Nazarene'. But given that the place called Nazareth, on the Galilean coast, did not exist until considerably later than the time of Jesus, this name/title is a convenient corruption.
Pilate's titulus, stating, 'Iesvs Nasarenvs Rex Ivdaeorvm' most likely refers to 'Jesus the Nazorean', the Nazoreans/Nazarenes being a religious sect associated with the Essenes of Qumran. Pilate is therefore identifying the messianic pretender as some kind of religious fanatic.
At this rate, it seems that Biblical names provide scope for speculation.
I believe very little written Aramaic has been preserved, but the relationship to Hebrew can assist us.
The written Aramaic words for, 'father, daughter, son' are: ברא, ברתא, אבא
The written Hebrew words for, 'father, daughter, son' are: בנו, בתו, האב
In each case, the words for, 'daughter' and 'son' are differentiated by only one letter.
'Barabbas/son of a father' in Hebrew is: בנו של האב whereas, 'daughter of a father' is: בתו של האב
I don't know, but I would not be surprised if the words for, 'son' and, 'daughter' are phonetically very similar.
If we speculate that 'Bar' translates as, 'begotten by', then 'Barabbas' might sound like, and translate as, either, 'son of a father' or, 'daughter of a father.' And to Roman ears, there might be no distinction.
In this alternative history, whether authentically or not, 'Barabbas' is simply being used as a family name. The male character named 'Joseph Barabbas' obviously has a different role here to the one in the original passion narrative.
But if we take the view that a female is using a masculine identifier, e.g. 'Alice Barabbas', then this is no different from the kind of naming in which e.g. 'Alice Fatherson' is understood to be a female.
In Eulalia's 'Lassie-Hunting', 'Lulie MacAlister' literally means, 'Lulie, son of Alister'. But, of course we understand the name to mean, 'Lulie, daughter of (the) MacAlister' or 'Lulie of the Clan MacAlister' etc.
And Lulie MacAlister does look kind of familiar...
very true, though in a Gaelic context I'd be Luilidh nic (daughter of) Alasdair, not mac.
And I suppose a female Barabbas would be Batabbas?
bobinder
ARTISAN
Thanks very much, Eul - I think that is exactly the kind of informed answer I was hoping for.
Perhaps it is not too late to edit the title and text?
I'm not sure I'm all that well-informed
It would be possible to edit the title and the text, but my instinct would be to leave it, the name Barabbas is familiar,
Alice Barabbas is obviously not a real 1st century name, but it's transparent to readers,
changing to Batabbas would seem a bit pedantic and confusing
And although Bat- is 'daughter of' in modern Hebrew, I think the only Biblical example is Bathsheba,
'daughter of the oath' - I don't know whether the 'th' is an older form, or affected by the following 'sh' -
so I'm not sure whether female Barabbas would be Batabbas or Bathabbas -
unless someone who really knows what they're talking about can help, it's best to let her be, I think
It would be possible to edit the title and the text, but my instinct would be to leave it, the name Barabbas is familiar,
Alice Barabbas is obviously not a real 1st century name, but it's transparent to readers,
changing to Batabbas would seem a bit pedantic and confusing
And although Bat- is 'daughter of' in modern Hebrew, I think the only Biblical example is Bathsheba,
'daughter of the oath' - I don't know whether the 'th' is an older form, or affected by the following 'sh' -
so I'm not sure whether female Barabbas would be Batabbas or Bathabbas -
unless someone who really knows what they're talking about can help, it's best to let her be, I think
Ramengmawiaaa
Magistrate
Lots of information is coming in, some of which may challenge my theories, but here goes...
As observed by Phlebas, the name, 'Barabbas' translates as, 'son of a father' (Bar Abba) and there is a theory that it was used as a popular false name by Jews who were challenged by the Romans. E.g. 'Who are you?' Answer, 'Barabbas', which would be quite truthful, if unhelpful, and it was assumed that the Romans wouldn't know any better (they probably did.) But of course 'son of a father' literally only works for a male.
I am not an expert on names or languages, and so I would welcome any thoughts here from those who are.
Ancient Aramaic is an obscure language, but appears to be related to Hebrew.
The written forms do not assist me with pronunciation, but perhaps we can make some educated guesses.
Naming among Jews in the Bible, as elsewhere, is about identifying particular individuals, since many names are very common (e.g. the number of Marys.) Sometimes individuals are specified by relationship e.g. 'Mary the mother of Jesus'. Alternatively, 'Mary Magdalene' may be a full name, title, or 'Mary from Magdala' etc.
One of the most common names was, 'Jesus' (Yeshu) because this is a popular derivation of 'Joshua' (Yeshua.)
Jesus is generally identified as 'Jesus of Nazareth' or 'The Nazarene'. But given that the place called Nazareth, on the Galilean coast, did not exist until considerably later than the time of Jesus, this name/title is a convenient corruption.
Pilate's titulus, stating, 'Iesvs Nasarenvs Rex Ivdaeorvm' most likely refers to 'Jesus the Nazorean', the Nazoreans/Nazarenes being a religious sect associated with the Essenes of Qumran. Pilate is therefore identifying the messianic pretender as some kind of religious fanatic.
At this rate, it seems that Biblical names provide scope for speculation.
I believe very little written Aramaic has been preserved, but the relationship to Hebrew can assist us.
The written Aramaic words for, 'father, daughter, son' are: ברא, ברתא, אבא
The written Hebrew words for, 'father, daughter, son' are: בנו, בתו, האב
In each case, the words for, 'daughter' and 'son' are differentiated by only one letter.
'Barabbas/son of a father' in Hebrew is: בנו של האב whereas, 'daughter of a father' is: בתו של האב
I don't know, but I would not be surprised if the words for, 'son' and, 'daughter' are phonetically very similar.
If we speculate that 'Bar' translates as, 'begotten by', then 'Barabbas' might sound like, and translate as, either, 'son of a father' or, 'daughter of a father.' And to Roman ears, there might be no distinction.
In this alternative history, whether authentically or not, 'Barabbas' is simply being used as a family name. The male character named 'Joseph Barabbas' obviously has a different role here to the one in the original passion narrative.
But if we take the view that a female is using a masculine identifier, e.g. 'Alice Barabbas', then this is no different from the kind of naming in which e.g. 'Alice Fatherson' is understood to be a female.
In Eulalia's 'Lassie-Hunting', 'Lulie MacAlister' literally means, 'Lulie, son of Alister'. But, of course we understand the name to mean, 'Lulie, daughter of (the) MacAlister' or 'Lulie of the Clan MacAlister' etc.
And Lulie MacAlister does look kind of familiar...
View attachment 579654
Hey, I feel quite stupid now, being a student of linguistics and the son of a preacher. Thank you all so much for all the information. This all goes into my notebooks. Thanks for the manips and the stories and helping me with my lessons.
Ramengmawiaaa
Magistrate
Thanks all, I expected to learn a bit more about Paint Shop Pro from this thread ( and by gum I'm doing that!) but I know now a good deal more about Aramaic names!
Maybe I should have gone for 'Alice Barbabbas'
You can always edit
Then would using you wrong heads, Wragg.Maybe I should have gone for 'Alice Barbabbas'
