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How To Build A Cross?

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Joined
Mar 24, 2015
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#1
I was wondering if anyone has experience building a functional indoor cross, or maybe came across plans for a working cross?

*It needs to be constructed inexpensively... perhaps lumber? Metal piping?
*It needs to be able to stand indoors... we don't have luxury of an outdoors crucifixion.
*Can't drill holes in his apartment walls or ceilings.
*Minimal tools available... probably just a power drill and basic household tools.

Any help and suggestions making this work?
 
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madiosi

Depictor of Dreams
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#2
I was wondering if anyone has experience building a functional indoor cross, or maybe came across plans for a working cross?

*It needs to be constructed inexpensively... perhaps lumber? Metal piping?
*It needs to be able to stand indoors... we don't have luxury of an outdoors crucifixion.
*Can't drill holes in his apartment walls or ceilings.
*Minimal tools available... probably just a power drill and basic household tools.

Any help and suggestions making this work?
Not exactly what you want, but informative:
http://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/my-crux-furniture-construction.5228/
http://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/building-a-cross.662/
http://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/which-material-for-cross-preferred.5266/
http://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/safe-crux.1839/
http://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/safe-diy-cruxing.459/
http://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/cross-with-mobility.2811/
http://corpas1.tumblr.com/post/78204157687/why-crucifixion-is-the-ultimate-bondage
 

culus

Assistant executioner
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Dec 17, 2016
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South Texas
#4
I have only a outdoor cross. The spike in a 1m hole sticked.
I use 9cm x 9cm bars. The patibulum 200cm long and the spike 300cm.
A few details
View attachment 450025 spike in the 1m deep floor hole
View attachment 450026 Patibulum on spike
View attachment 450027 connection patilulum and spike
View attachment 450028 backside stabilized metal plate
Very similar to my Master's cross. His is standing on a small hill on the property and I have a nice view of the surrounding countryside while I am crucified. Once a helicopter flew overhead and I wondered what the pilot must have been thinking as I struggled on the cross.
 
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#5
Very similar to my Master's cross. His is standing on a small hill on the property and I have a nice view of the surrounding countryside while I am crucified. Once a helicopter flew overhead and I wondered what the pilot must have been thinking as I struggled on the cross.
Were you riding the cornu? If not he probably thought it was a giant crucifix from that height!
 
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#7

PhilX

Assistant executioner
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#8
Goodness, don't go near anything wobbly! The most important thing is that the equipment won't collapse, particularly if you are doing anything alone.

Two rules I have; 1) Don't get into a position that you cannot get out of, & 2) Equipment that is strong enough (& more) to bear one's weight.
 

madiosi

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#9
Goodness, don't go near anything wobbly! The most important thing is that the equipment won't collapse, particularly if you are doing anything alone.

Two rules I have; 1) Don't get into a position that you cannot get out of, & 2) Equipment that is strong enough (& more) to bear one's weight.
Yes, DIY crossmaker look
http://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/safe-crux.1839/
 
Joined
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#10
Wow, thats fantastic that you have a cross with removable patibulum in this "authentic" style, enabling you to re-create the "presumed" real ancient crucifixion method.

May I ask, did you or your "crew" ever try to conduct a crucifixion with fixation of the victim to the crossbeam while on the ground and lifting the victim with the beam on top of the stipes or are you only using it in already fully assembled form?

rpc.jpg

(from the "Gospelcomic", very special thanks to pedwards)
 

madiosi

Depictor of Dreams
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Location
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#11
Wow, thats fantastic that you have a cross with removable patibulum in this "authentic" style, enabling you to re-create the "presumed" real ancient crucifixion method.

May I ask, did you or your "crew" ever try to conduct a crucifixion with fixation of the victim to the crossbeam while on the ground and lifting the victim with the beam on top of the stipes or are you only using it in already fully assembled form?

View attachment 450649

(from the "Gospelcomic", very special thanks to pedwards)
Only for self crucifixion with time-lock.
I have learn, one lock is enough.
http://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/safe-crux.1839/page-5#post-110680
 

jedakk

CARNIFEX MAXIMUS
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Apr 21, 2005
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#14
Yes, only one is safer. I can not Fall but i can release the other hand and feet.
Ok, so it's rigged to just release one hand and then you're free to release everything else? And you're already standing, so you won't fall, correct?
 

jedakk

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#16
Wow, thats fantastic that you have a cross with removable patibulum in this "authentic" style, enabling you to re-create the "presumed" real ancient crucifixion method.

May I ask, did you or your "crew" ever try to conduct a crucifixion with fixation of the victim to the crossbeam while on the ground and lifting the victim with the beam on top of the stipes or are you only using it in already fully assembled form?
A couple of things that used to bother me about some of the artists' representations of crucifixion, like this drawing, and the way the timbers joined was that for the mortise and tenon joint they showed the tenon as being a tight fit into the mortise, and they showed it as being just long enough to reach the top side of the patibulum and no more.

I thought a lot about that and about how we, and the Romans, did other timber joinery, what works well and what doesn't. First of all, if the joint is a tight fit, then everything has to be lined up perfectly for the two parts to go together. That might not be easily done under real conditions. What would have worked better is to have the top of the tenon smaller, so that it will go into the mortise easily without the need for perfect alignment.

In the 3D model of a cross I created years ago and have used in a lot of my art, that's what I show - a tapered tenon that makes it quick and easy to assemble with the victim hanging from it. In the picture below from "The Serpent's Eye" you can see the mortise in the patibulum and above it, the tapered tenon that will go into it when it's lifted up.



In the next picture, they have just begun to lift and her feet are about to leave the ground.



Another consideration when lifting it like this is that with the victim's weight all hanging on one side, if they're not careful the beam could turn in their hands. That could break the victim's wrists and they could end up dropping it.

In the picture below, they have the mortise in the patibulum over the top of the tenon, and it's easier to see that it's not a tight fit, so easy to line up.



And then when it's lowered into place on the tapered tenon, it's a tight fit and will get tighter as the victim's struggles make it settle into place.



The other thing I mentioned before is how people have made the assumption that the tenon would only be as long as the depth of the mortise. I've also read articles where the authors said that there was no place to attach a titulus above the head of the victim on a cross like this. But there's no reason that the tenon has to be that short, and it's easier to assemble if it's longer. And making it longer for ease of assembly happens to give a good place to attach a titulus, as shown below.



The subject of this thread is not historical crucifixion, but from what some have posted, it sounds like people have an interest in modeling what they do after what was done by the Romans, up to a point.
 

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#17
Thank you, I see, you have really invested a lot of research and experimentation into this question.

Of course we can not know, if it was really done this way in ancient times. An interesting point is indeed, how exactly did the mortise have to fit to the tapered tenon.
I agree that under "real" (ancient) conditions with a struggling, screaming victim that was far more difficult to accomplish than we may see it on our favorite pictures or renderings.

So, maybe, the mortise was a bit bigger so the patibulum could be set on top of the stipes a bit easier, even if the victim was wiggling and the final fixation was done by hammering two wooden stoppers from above into the remaining empty spaces. I think I even have seen some depiction of such a method, but I cant remember where actually ( I think it was one of the drawings by Thomas Mahoney from our yahoo-male-brother-group).

ws.jpg

Two older movies did show another way, in the Jesus of Nazareth mini-series (1979, with Robert Powell) and in "Jesus of Montreal" (1989) the removable patibulum is attatched to iron hooks, but I think thats too complicated to be real: every patibulum had to be prepared individually for such a solution, not exactly in accordance with maximum Roman efficiency.

Another possbility was, maybe, to restrain the movement of the victim and/or hold and support his/her lower body until the fixation was complete. That the legs were dangling around free and the victim could trash around in agony did surely not make it easier. "We" may like to see that, because it could make a crucifixion scene "hotter" - but for proceedings in ancient history it seemed more plausible what one pic of Spartacus´ slaves crucifixion did show (it was posted here at the male crucifixion thread, too, I think) : the naked slaves ankles were bould together (at least temporarly) when he was nailed to the patibulum and lifted up so he could not trash around and wiggle.

best regards
Ty.
 
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PhilX

Assistant executioner
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#18
I have never liked this mortice & tenon idea for many of the reasons Jedakk gives. It just seems too difficult. Raising a cross whole with the victim already nailed & thus relatively controlled as far as writhing & kicking goes must be easier. Hingeing the cross from the bottom makes good sense (as is the method in the recent Risen movie). There is a video of a Passion Play somewhere where the chap playing Jesus is tied to quite a high cross & then a small group raise it up without any difficulty - this was in real life, no special effects available.
 

jedakk

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#19
QUOTE="Tygorn, post: 296211, member: 2536"]Of course we can not know, if it was really done this way in ancient times.[/QUOTE]

I agree, without some description by someone who was actually present at the time, or maybe finding a preserved cross with the victim still attached under the ash outside the walls of Pompeii, it's at best an educated guess. We do know that the Romans were excellent woodworkers and could cut joints in timbers as well as anyone. Up until the beginning of the 20th century, it was still much more common to join timbers by cutting some kind of joint than by using nails alone.

An interesting point is indeed, how exactly did the mortise have to fit to the tapered tenon.
The one I modeled on the cross in the pictures has a tapered mortise also. That's not strictly necessary to make the parts fit; even if the mortise were straight through, as long as it was smaller in size than the base of the tenon, it ought to find a point when sliding down where it would stop and provide a sufficiently solid engagement to give the victim an adequate crucifixion experience. And yes, you certainly could drive wedges into the joint to tighten it if that seemed necessary.

Another type of mortise and tenon joint that I explored and experimented with was called a dovetail notch. I used to teach Boy Scouts how to make these using a camp saw and a pocket knife - that's how easy they are to make. In the attached file I show how one of these could have been made using the type of tools the Romans had commonly available. I've had some other ideas since.
 

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jedakk

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#20
I have never liked this mortice & tenon idea for many of the reasons Jedakk gives. It just seems too difficult. Raising a cross whole with the victim already nailed & thus relatively controlled as far as writhing & kicking goes must be easier. Hingeing the cross from the bottom makes good sense (as is the method in the recent Risen movie). There is a video of a Passion Play somewhere where the chap playing Jesus is tied to quite a high cross & then a small group raise it up without any difficulty - this was in real life, no special effects available.
I love the scenario of raising the entire cross with the victim attached, but the instability of a cross probably ten or eleven feet in the air, minimum with all of the weight at the top could be a risk for disaster. I think you'd really need ropes attached to the top so that people other than those pushing it up could maintain some control over it and keep it from shifting while it rose.