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Fox-on-Cross

Great-Cruxinquisitor
Thesis#3:
"Yet it does not mean solely inner repentance; such inner repentance is worthless unless it produces various outward mortification of the flesh."

In the 500th year of the Reformation I saw this thesis #3 from Martin Luther.
Penitence is not only a spiritual move but also an action for the flesh.
The comment is here perhaps a rudiment of Luther's monasterial life, with ascesis and "discipline" but also we can understand this as a real selfcrucifixion. Perhaps his wife helped him with this?
 

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girl-confused.jpg Why have we to do "penitence" ? For our sins ? What is a sin ?
I do and "basta" ! I dont want to have any regret about what I do : if the others are not happy, they always can get away ...
...and the sufferings is also a pleasure, for me ! I love whip and crucifixion for that ... nothing else !

Just my thoughts ...;)
 
Thesis#3:
"Yet it does not mean solely inner repentance; such inner repentance is worthless unless it produces various outward mortification of the flesh."

In the 500th year of the Reformation I saw this thesis #3 from Martin Luther.
Penitence is not only a spiritual move but also an action for the flesh.
The comment is here perhaps a rudiment of Luther's monasterial life, with ascesis and "discipline" but also we can understand this as a real selfcrucifixion. Perhaps his wife helped him with this?

Hmm. It is a tempting path, I'm sure. But maybe it is the easy path too. Easier to mortify the flesh, to starve or beat oneself for a short time, than to truly change your behaviour for ever, eh? And who knows, you may even derive a secret pleasure. I am suspicious of those who sanctimoniously "mortify the flesh". Luther seems to feel that inner change is not good enough without outward show, and that makes me doubt his motives. I think there is a place for discipline, and for sacrifice, but beware taking pride in it or mistaking it for the end rather than the means!

View attachment 509631 Why have we to do "penitence" ? For our sins ? What is a sin ?
I do and "basta" ! I dont want to have any regret about what I do : if the others are not happy, they always can get away ...
...and the sufferings is also a pleasure, for me ! I love whip and crucifixion for that ... nothing else !

Just my thoughts ...;)

Such a shameless confession, Messa. It pains me but I must insist that you subject yourself to correction for your wantonness. :devil:
 
it does not mean solely inner repentance
Hmmm. In general I do think there's some value in the idea that 'inner repentance' or some internal spiritual struggle, can be reinforced and confirmed with something outward.
This might be something like a pilgrimage, where the long, strenous journey itself, the companionship with others on that road, and the removal for some time, from the ambitions of the life on was settled in before,are all together probably much more important than arriving at the destination and performing some ritual. After all, body and mind do not go all their own separate ways...

think there is a place for discipline, and for sacrifice, but beware taking pride in it or mistaking it for the end rather than the means!
That's certainly true... just participating in some rite of castigation, self-flagellation, or banging your head repeatedly gainst a very heavy and hard book while chanting unintelligibly isn't necessarily supportive of inner repentance, it's more, 'Look you can see I've done my bit of penitence, now I'll go back to whatever I was doing before'

you may even derive a secret pleasure
A question for the priesthoods to wrack their head over, if you go through some penitence that's difficult, painful, challenging, exacting, full of effort, ... but that also yields pleasure, ... does that invalidate it? -- The 'Order of the Merciful Redemption' in one of my stories has certainly decided no :D in fact, getting whipped to orgasm is a perfectly fine purification the way they see it ;)
 
In fact, what I wanted to say that repentance is an idea coming from religions : if you've yet this idea, it's certainly because you're not delivered of your religion'teaching . I dont believe in anything now, the life was learning me that it was only pipedream and made to get people accepting their fate and having punishment for their hypothetical falses ...
OK ! Everybody is commiting errors , but I dont see why we should have to suffering for them !
We can try to repair them but why to have a pain for them ? Are the victims happier in seeing you suffering ?
If yes, that's a pity because their detriment will not be changed after your punishment ...
And this idea to suffer for an ideology is, in my opinion, not a good thing : we've ideologies to make them winning , not to be destroyed by the other into a great sacrifice or "auto da fe" like during the Inquisition'time ...
No, decidely, I'll always prefer the battle, even if in this battle I'll be won: from my "cross" (I dont say "punishment"), I'll always be fighting and agressive like a proud amazon !

Messaline Crucified 001red (2).jpg Just my thoughts ...
 
Martin Luther was a martyr to constipation -
he made no secret of the fact, he said he was sitting on the cludgie
when he was inspired with the revelation that salvation comes from faith,
not works. He then wrote his 95 theses on a convenient piece of parchment :devil:
 
Hmmm. In general I do think there's some value in the idea that 'inner repentance' or some internal spiritual struggle, can be reinforced and confirmed with something outward.
This might be something like a pilgrimage, where the long, strenous journey itself, the companionship with others on that road, and the removal for some time, from the ambitions of the life on was settled in before,are all together probably much more important than arriving at the destination and performing some ritual. After all, body and mind do not go all their own separate ways...
Not to put words in Luther's mouth, who may very well have been talking about some sort of ritual mortification of the flesh, such as self-flagellation or some other "discipline". However, I have also heard more contemporary scholars discuss that while salvation may come from faith, not works, a purely inner repentance is meaningless unless it is demonstrated that a person is making efforts to amend the sinful behaviour. In that regard, if one is doing things, as Messaline suggests, and not regretting them, then there is no repentance implied there at all, and perhaps not even needed.
In fact, what I wanted to say that repentance is an idea coming from religions : if you've yet this idea, it's certainly because you're not delivered of your religion'teaching . I dont believe in anything now, the life was learning me that it was only pipedream and made to get people accepting their fate and having punishment for their hypothetical falses ...
Repentance is a concept from religious teaching, yes, but it is not necessary to be religious to repent of something. If a person does something which they regret, they may apologize. However, the repentance implied by the apology is meaningless if the person is just going to turn around and do that thing again, even though they regretted it in the first place.

Even so, the notion that one can "repent" and then show repentance by covering oneself in whip marks seems like false repentance, if one is not going to change the behaviour. If one repents of some behaviour because they feel their religion or some other moral code requires them to repent, and then goes out to show their repentance through some mortification of the flesh, but is really not intending to change that behaviour, then I wonder if the person is not getting some sort of pleasure from the process of repentance. They will commit the "sin" again, just so they can repent again, because of the pleasure that cycle gives them.
 
Not to put words in Luther's mouth, who may very well have been talking about some sort of ritual mortification of the flesh, such as self-flagellation or some other "discipline". However, I have also heard more contemporary scholars discuss that while salvation may come from faith, not works, a purely inner repentance is meaningless unless it is demonstrated that a person is making efforts to amend the sinful behaviour.

Well, as usual with Luther, the German is very in-your face, '...nicht nur auf eine innere Buße, ja eine solche wäre gar keine, wenn sie nicht nach außen mancherlei Werke zur Abtötung des Fleisches bewirkte.'

Worldviews have changed enough in 500 years so it does need to be parsed ... when he demands, literally, 'various outwardly directed works that serve to deaden the flesh' this is obviously of course not about the literal destruction of tissue in your body, nor do I think it's to be limited to ritualized pretenses of 'mortification'.

Absolutely uncompromisingly though he does demand 'Werke' i.e. works to accompany inner repentance, and they must be directed outwards.

Also it's important to remember that Luther wasn't aiming at introducing a more 'tolerant' Christianity, but to re-radicalize it, so his intent is not always something that we'd find 'enlightened' or progressive today.

'The flesh' is the sinful carnal nature as such -- at the least the sum entire of ungodly desires, drives, and behaviors, and 'deadening the flesh' is about attempting to make yourself 'dead to sin'.

It's a concept that's repugnant to me because I don't subscribe to that way of thinking on which parts of human nature are good or bad, I don't agree with assigning evil to 'the flesh' but that's the background.

An interpretation that's palatable for modern tastes would be that any spiritual insight to change some destructive or toxic behavior you've been engaging in, has to be accompanied with a visible according lifestyle change, that should come at some inconvenience, effort or cost.

Modern example! -- A person comes to care deeply about The Planet, and climate change and such. Finding inner repentance in recognizing the wrongness of how resource consumption and resulting pollution will mess up the world for unborn generations. But, she continues to fly by 747 to conferences where everything is said about the topic that's been said for 25 years, gets new Iphone, Ipad, Imac every year and drinks imported plastic-bottled water -- so, her inner repentance is not accompanied by outward 'mortification' i.e. accepting a quantifiable and publicly visible 'sacrifice' with her repentance. Basically it's ... hypocrisy.

Repentance is a concept from religious teaching, yes, but it is not necessary to be religious to repent of something.
I absolutely agree with that.
Obviously today our valuation what kinds of thoughts, desires and behaviors are 'sinful' and need repenting from have changed quite a bit but even among the very secular, the idea of sin which is inherently bad as such even before it becomes a deed is alive and well. It's just expressed with different language.
OK ! Everybody is commiting errors , but I dont see why we should have to suffering for them !
We can try to repair them but why to have a pain for them ? Are the victims happier in seeing you suffering ?
If yes, that's a pity because their detriment will not be changed after your punishment ...
I don't think that the intent is to make other people happier through seeing a 'sinner' suffer, rather that choosing to suffer is an expression of that step of one's development, and that it can make oneself more secure, and happier, resting in that change of course because it's not just a thought your mind went through but also an effort or pain your body went through, and so it's become part of your being, your instinctual self as well as your conscious self.

That, in some way, makes sense to me.
 
I think it's all very strange. Repentance in the older form of meaning seems to mean, admitting fault so that someone from the almighty church could tell you what you must do as form of penance. I view that in modern context as the prosecutor needing the alleged bad guy to say he is in fact thee bad guy, in order to enact a proceeding of judgement upon the now confessed bad guy. Either way, it seems like a form of control. An individual, who had committed a sin, no matter how remorseful they were, or how active they were to make amends could not be free of the sin until they had followed through with whatever a priest or other figure in charge declared was the correct way. Thus people were forced to conform, and no matter how good of a person they became by recognizing the sin they had incurred, it mattered not in the eyes of the church or magistrate.

While there is something to making sure one's actions are just that, actions and not some mental drivel. I don't think the process of penance can be or should be tied up in the hands of a select few.

Then again... I'm not religious in the traditional since. As far as I'm concerned the creator could be an ant inside a giant onion and all that we are or will ever be are his scribbling upon the infinite layers of the onion itself... Perhaps this is why people cry when they chop up onions?! Hmmm...
 
Also it's important to remember that Luther wasn't aiming at introducing a more 'tolerant' Christianity, but to re-radicalize it, so his intent is not always something that we'd find 'enlightened' or progressive today.
Certainly !!!

An interpretation that's palatable for modern tastes would be that any spiritual insight to change some destructive or toxic behavior you've been engaging in, has to be accompanied with a visible according lifestyle change, that should come at some inconvenience, effort or cost.
Why could it be "inconvenience, effort or cost" ?
Not necessary: it could be very arousing to see that our life is better in changing some destructive or toxic behaviors ...
for example, to stop smoking and visibly beeing better in our body ... ( or in stopping Mc Donald !:D)

No, what I dont understand is why a behavior'change towards the others do be followed by a pain ?
Like I said by the past, when I was young, I was fascinated by the seeing of this man (J-C) nailed and suffering to his cross in the Via-Cruxis'churches ...
Yes, I'm very attracted by the crucifixion and other pains, but it's not to play the sacrifice'lamb : Isaac'sacrifice or Iphigenia'sacrifice have no sense for me ; I dont see how the murder of somebody could change the life'course...
As in my fantasy than in my reality (BDSM), I dont consider that my pain could be a punishment ; it could be my fate for having dare to fight against the established order, but I'm rather proud to be submitted to this torture !
In my reality, BDSM is signifying my love for my partner, not a repentance for having disobey ...

In fact, the question is complex and it will be long, in my opinion, to clear the world of these old ideas coming from so much centuries of the different religions'oppressions !
 
Repentance is a concept from religious teaching, yes, but it is not necessary to be religious to repent of something. If a person does something which they regret, they may apologize. However, the repentance implied by the apology is meaningless if the person is just going to turn around and do that thing again, even though they regretted it in the first place.
Obviously ...

They will commit the "sin" again, just so they can repent again, because of the pleasure that cycle gives them.
:D It could be ...:devil:
 
Martin Luther was a martyr to constipation -
he made no secret of the fact, he said he was sitting on the cludgie
when he was inspired with the revelation that salvation comes from faith,
not works. He then wrote his 95 theses on a convenient piece of parchment :devil:

:D as a good left footer I am sorely tempted to make a comment at this point, but I will refrain :D


Repentance is a concept from religious teaching, yes, but it is not necessary to be religious to repent of something. If a person does something which they regret, they may apologize. However, the repentance implied by the apology is meaningless if the person is just going to turn around and do that thing again, even though they regretted it in the first place.

Even so, the notion that one can "repent" and then show repentance by covering oneself in whip marks seems like false repentance, if one is not going to change the behaviour. If one repents of some behaviour because they feel their religion or some other moral code requires them to repent, and then goes out to show their repentance through some mortification of the flesh, but is really not intending to change that behaviour, then I wonder if the person is not getting some sort of pleasure from the process of repentance. They will commit the "sin" again, just so they can repent again, because of the pleasure that cycle gives them.

Hence metanoia, Jolly, the transformative change of heart.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanoia_(theology)

Also it's important to remember that Luther wasn't aiming at introducing a more 'tolerant' Christianity, but to re-radicalize it, so his intent is not always something that we'd find 'enlightened' or progressive today.

Exactly.
 
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