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May the story of Isaac be a suitable topic here, too ?

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Ave,

I presume many of you know from religous education at school the biblical (old testament) story of Isaac, the son of Abraham.
According to mythology the story went as follows: as a youth he went with his father Abraham on mount Moria to bring God a sacrifice. After a
while he wondered where the animal is that should be sacrificed - to realize that HE should be the victim to be sacrificed, or, to be honest,
to get slaughtered and burnt, since that was basically what had to happen. God has "ordered" Abraham to bring his own son as a sacrifice.
The bible does obviously not elaborate on details, only that he was "prepared" (stripped and bound presumably) for sacrifice, but in the last
moment before Abraham wants to kill him with his knife, an angel interfered and prevented the sacrifice and provided a goat as a subsitute
sacrifice.

That leaves much room for speculation. Did young Isaac really "agree" to get sacrificed? Did he obey his father leading to (possible) death?
Was he afraid, shocked? Did he resist or was he reluctant about the prospect getting slaughtered and burnt?

So, where is the connection to crucifixion here?

Theology says, that this event was the "role model" for the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross almost 2000 years later, Abraham playing the role
of "God" sacrificing his son and Isaac taking the place of Jesus. But Isaac was not the "Son of God", only an innocent youth at this time.

How do I come to this topic? On a recent "culture trip" I got the opportunity to watch a lot of classic art representing this famous bible
story. I was surprised how many artists did try to render this scene under different aspects, psychologically and regarding the characters -
and I noticed a strong "religion-induced S/M connection" (similar to crucifixion) which did motivate me to post this. Please forgive me, if
you are not interested.

First, the portrayal of Abraham is usually not that one of a good, loving and caring father - in many portrayals the "sacrifice" of Isaac
looks more like an execution with his father as the executioner, a somehow fanatical, merciless "executioner of Gods will", if you may say so.
On the other hand it seemed to me that young Isaac is often being already portrayed as a "young Jesus" in appearance, he has often longer hair
than you might presume for a boy, in the sacrifice scene he is usually barefoot and stripped down to his loincloth, sometimes even being
completely naked, resembling the Jesus character in crucifixion depictions with a slender, skinny and youthful body, too. He is often bound
(S/M reference to "religon-induced bondage") hands behind his back or in front of him. myth also tells, that he had to carry the wood for the
burning on his back himself (before he became aware that he is the victim) resembling the carrying of the cross(beam) by Jesus. Some pictures
even show Isaac in a crucified-like position with arms stretched out and bound to poles at the sacrifice position.
But the most interesting aspect is in my opinion how the artists did handle the myth that Issac (like Jesus) did simply obey his father
regarding getting "sacrificed"(killed) - in most depiction this is being negated, speculating that Isaac did not want to die due to his "human
nature". Sure, what expected him, may be not as horrible as being crucified, but bad enough, getting slaughtered and burnt like an animal by
his own father.

Thats the reason, why (by far) my favorite depiction is by Dutch master Jan Lievens (the last one in the attatched selection) , because he did not show the scene when the angel interferes like 99% of the other classic paintings, but what happened before: Young Isaac had been stripped and is now being led to the pile of wood where the "sacrifice" shall take place. But he seems somehow reluctant, so his father forces him down with firm grip at his right arm, unsure if his son may not resist his cruel fate. Isaac, staring at his father with a pleading gaze, full of fear, desperation and horror, pleads for his life one last time: Why me? Its me, Isaac, your son. But his merciless father, pointing to heaven, only responds: Because it is HIS will we have to obey.
Its basically Isaacs "Gethsemane"-moment, resembling the crucifixion story once again.
The facial expression of the both characters is so masterful, its incredible, so heart-breaking cruel and moving at the same time - and Isaacs
body is very nice, too... I have to admit ;-) For me thats one of the greatest bible-story classic art (with S/M-touch) ever created. A true
masterpiece. (If you are interested in this picture as much as I am you can download a really huge, 55 mb big, professional JPG replica in
incredible resolution of 7246 x 9199 at the Dallas museum homepage, then you can watch details especially about the faces showing how
fantastic this work really is)

Sorry for the long text but I wanted to share my thoughts with an audience which may appreciate it. Thank you for your attention.
best regards
Ty.
2797.jpgSacrifice_of_Isaac-Caravaggio-w.jpgthe-sacrifice-of-abraham-cristofano-allori.jpgthe-sacrifice-of-isaac-giovanni-battista-tiepolo.jpgPedro_Orrente_Isaac.jpgMantegna,_sacrificio_di_isacco.jpgPhilippe_de_Champaigne_-_Le_sacrifice_d'Isaac.jpglast-moment-the-sacrifice.jpgThe_Sacrifice_of_Isaac_LACMA_M.2000.179.40.jpgjan_lievens_isaac.jpg
 
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Ave,

I presume many of you know from religous education at school the biblical (old testament) story of Isaac, the son of Abraham.
According to mythology the story went as follows: as a youth he went with his father Abraham on mount Moria to bring God a sacrifice. After a
while he wondered where the animal is that should be sacrificed - to realize that HE should be the victim to be sacrificed, or, to be honest,
to get slaughtered and burnt, since that was basically what had to happen. God has "ordered" Abraham to bring his own son as a sacrifice.
The bible does obviously not elaborate on details, only that he was "prepared" (stripped and bound presumably) for sacrifice, but in the last
moment before Abraham wants to kill him with his knife, an angel interfered and prevented the sacrifice and provided a goat as a subsitute
sacrifice.

That leaves much room for speculation. Did young Isaac really "agree" to get sacrificed? Did he obey his father leading to (possible) death?
Was he afraid, shocked? Did he resist or was he reluctant about the prospect getting slaughtered and burnt?

So, where is the connection to crucifixion here?

Theology says, that this event was the "role model" for the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross almost 2000 years later, Abraham playing the role
of "God" sacrificing his son and Isaac taking the place of Jesus. But Isaac was not the "Son of God", only an innocent youth at this time.

How do I come to this topic? On a recent "culture trip" I got the opportunity to watch a lot of classic art representing this famous bible
story. I was surprised how many artists did try to render this scene under different aspects, psychologically and regarding the characters -
and I noticed a strong "religion-induced S/M connection" (similar to crucifixion) which did motivate me to post this. Please forgive me, if
you are not interested.

First, the portrayal of Abraham is usually not that one of a good, loving and caring father - in many portrayals the "sacrifice" of Isaac
looks more like an execution with his father as the executioner, a somehow fanatical, merciless "executioner of Gods will", if you may say so.
On the other hand it seemed to me that young Isaac is often being already portrayed as a "young Jesus" in appearance, he has often longer hair
than you might presume for a boy, in the sacrifice scene he is usually barefoot and stripped down to his loincloth, sometimes even being
completely naked, resembling the Jesus character in crucifixion depictions with a slender, skinny and youthful body, too. He is often bound
(S/M reference to "religon-induced bondage") hands behind his back or in front of him. myth also tells, that he had to carry the wood for the
burning on his back himself (before he became aware that he is the victim) resembling the carrying of the cross(beam) by Jesus. Some pictures
even show Isaac in a crucified-like position with arms stretched out and bound to poles at the sacrifice position.
But the most interesting aspect is in my opinion how the artists did handle the myth that Issac (like Jesus) did simply obey his father
regarding getting "sacrificed"(killed) - in most depiction this is being negated, speculating that Isaac did not want to die due to his "human
nature". Sure, what expected him, may be not as horrible as being crucified, but bad enough, getting slaughtered and burnt like an animal by
his own father.

Thats the reason, why (by far) my favorite depiction is by Dutch master Jan Lievens (the last one in the attatched selection) , because he did not show the scene when the angelinterferes like 99% of the other classic paintings, but what happened before: Young Isaac had been stripped and is now being led to the pile of wood where the "sacrifice" shall take place. But he seems somehow reluctant, so his father forces him down with firm grip at his right arm, unsure if his son may not resist his cruel fate. Isaac, staring at his father with a pleading gaze, full of fear, desperation and horror, pleads for his life one last time: Why me? Its me, Isaac, your son. But his merciless father, pointing to heaven, only responds: Because it is
HIS will we have to obey.
Its basically Isaacs "Gethsemane"-moment, resembling the crucifixion story once again.
The facial expression of the both characters is so masterful, its incredible, so heart-breaking cruel and moving at the same time - and Isaacs
body is very nice, too... I have to admit ;-) For me thats one of the greatest bible-story classic art (with S/M-touch) ever created. A true
masterpiece. (If you are interested in this picture as much as I am you can download a really huge, 55 mb big, professional JPG replica in
incredible resolution of 7246 x 9199 at the Dallas museum homepage, then you can watch details especially about the faces showing how
fantastic this work really is)

Sorry for the long text but I wanted to share my thoughts with an audience which may appreciate it. Thank you for your attention.
best regards
Ty.
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I've said before that I think all the interest in martyrs from early times through the middle ages has a huge sexual component--it's a safe way to express it.
The same can be said for Renaissance art. Commissioning art on Biblical subjects earns brownie points to be applied against salvation but also allows as lot of nudity on your walls with no guilt.
 
Images like those of Isaac more or less naked, bound, stretched and ready to be sacrificed
certainly fed my excitement about the experience of being sacrificed. As in those examples,
he's typically portrayed either as a gorgeous boy I could fancy, or a near-feminine figure I could identify with.
 
I see no reason why this should not be the subject of a story here at CF. I have done a sacrifice story before, based on the Iphegenia myth, and the biblical story of Jephtha's daughter. That story can be found here: http://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/appeasement.4697/

I suspect that the story of Isaac has not been done here, because it involves a male victim, and most of the writers here tend to write about female victims/subjects. There is certainly no problem with a story that has a male sacrifice subject. Go to it, and best wishes.:icon_writing::beer:

Make sure your characters are all over the age of 18 years (no children in stories or pictures here).
 
Thank you for your feedback.
Sorry, English is not my native language so I apologize for any misunderstanding. Of course I am aware, that this forum is mainly about
crucifixion and female victims. I am a member long enough to know that. I should have written "the myth of Isaac" and not "the story of
Isaac", since I was only referring to the connection between Isaac and Jesus (the most famous crucifixion victim) and the S/M religion-
nakedness- and bondage-related parallels, the sexual implications and their common depiction in classic art, elaborating about the characters
and how they are being portrayed. My question was about if this topic belongs to crucifixion/torture-related themes in a wider meaning here at
the forum, for example like St. Sebastian and other martyrs as mentioned by member "Frank Petrexa" , which were not "crucified" but have this
sexual attraction by their fate to people like us.
I am not good enough in english to write an explicit story about Isaac, I think. But its an idea worth considering, thank you for the
inspiration.
I wish a happy christmas to all members.

best regards
Ty.
 
I have wondered myself about the question:-
"In societies that practised human sacrifice was the "Victim" always unwilling?
Or was it seen as an "honour" to give one's life to the glory of the Gods?"

In the latter case the "victim" might well go willingly (perhaps with some narcotic aid) to their death.
 
In the latter case the "victim" might well go willingly (perhaps with some narcotic aid) to their death.

My understanding was that some religions portrayed a sacrifice as the most noble way to die (and let's face it, people witnessed horrible ways to die; painful lingering deaths from wounds and disease, pre-modern medicine).

See also Crux Trek - A Taste Of Crucifixion
 
Thats a good question. For my "research" to this posting about Isaac I wondered about this, too. We cant be sure, of course - fundamentalist bible readers believe (of course), Isaac "volunteered" to be the victim to be sacrificed, after his father explained it to him, that it was "Gods will".
The artists portraying this event seemed to have more doubts about this - considering the human nature I neither believe it. I would believe, Isaac was shocked and felt fear, desperation and horror about his fate. And thats another reason why I like this Jan Lievens picture so much - in my opinion he found exactly the right balance between the unplausible "Isaac volunteered" and the human understandable reluctance "I dont want to die" when portraying the implied struggle between (resisting) Isaac and (forcing) Abraham.
We may not forget, even Jesus felt this fear and pleaded, that the "cup may pass". If Isaac was considered to be the "role model" for Jesus sacrifice, he may have felt in a similar way. So these feelings are nothing to be ashamed of. Its natural, its human.
 
By volume of deaths, at least, it seems that the Aztecs and their precursors in Mesoamerica were the all-time champions of human sacrifice, with numbers in the tens of thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands per year. The sacrifices were literally seen as essential for the Universe to continue functioning.

The victims were generally prisoners of war from neighboring tribes. Were they willing? There seems general agreement that the victims participated in very elaborate ceremonies, so it seems there was some degree of volition. But it also seems they were told they were going to be killed and could either go along and die honorably after partaking in feasts or die dishonorably with no goodies. No writings by the victims survive, so we don't know. It's worth noting that when the Spaniards landed at Veracruz, Mexico, many of the other tribes were happy to ally with them against the Aztecs, so perhaps they weren't so willing...

Old Slave has mentioned Jollyrei's excellent story "Crux Trek" which presents a (fictional) case where the victims presented themselves willingly for crucifixion and I should mention his story "Stories from the Colonies" in which the Mayans conquered Europe, rather than the reverse and instituted some of their practices there.

As far as stories here, there is no requirement that it involve crucifixion (most of mine don't) nor even that it involve suffering of any sort. It would be nice to have some gentle happy stories here every now and then. As for male victims, if it's a good story, that wouldn't deter me from reading it,
 
Regarding the "Aztec sacrifice story" I really recommend the adventure movie "APOCALYPTO" by Mel Gibson, by the way. Its only a few years old. Even if I really do absolutely NOT like what Gibson did in "The Passion of the Christ", I have to admit that "Apocalypto" is a good movie. Very solid and bloody adventure, Gibson is only the director and not starring in this movie, but the guy playing the leading role is really a hottie, in my opinion... worth watching for males and females interested in this theme :hambre:
 
Whilst I agree that in some ancient cultures the victims may have gone willingly to sacrifice and indeed it may have been regarded as an honour to be selected as such I do not believe this to be the case with Isaac and I think the way the great masters have depicted it suggests that this is not the case. The fact that in almost all depictions he is bound would suggest that he would have made struggle to escape, which would not of course be the case if he was a willing participant in the ritual of execution that was about to take place, also the shock and torment on his face shows his total dismay that his very father would subject him to such a fate?? I think the great work by Delsarto makes this very clear? Thank you so much Tye for collating this collection, awesome images indeed!
 

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I completely agree with you and thanks for posting this, indeed its one of the best regarding the expression of Isaacs fear - I had it in my collection, too, but due to the limitations in pic posting I could not attatch it.

To be honest, during my "research" I did wonder a bit, why Isaac has been stripped in all these depictions after all - it makes it "hot" for people like us with this "special interest" (especially if the body is as hot as in Jan Lievens painting), but this was surely not the intention of the painters... was it an artists way of expression the innocence of young Isaac, was it for foreshading the crucifixion when Jesus should take the sacrifice role typically depicted with an loincloth, was it part of the "sacrifice ritual", that the victim had to be naked or almost naked, was it because Abraham did not want to waste Isaacs clothing with blood (I know, a macabre and cynical idea), was it to find the spots on the (naked) body where the knife should enter the flesh... I am still not sure.
I mean, this was not exactly an "execution" like Jesus crucifixion with an "audience" present at the actual event, the only audience are we looking at these paintings.

Why Isaac was bound, is indeed comprehensibly, as you mentioned it.
Another open question was to me what weapon was used and how the killing (slaughtering) was about to take place. In some depictions Abraham seemed to use a weapon like a sword or even an axe as if he wanted to cut Isaacs head off. In most paintings he is using a knife or dagger, maybe a ritual weapon, and it looks as if he wants to cut the throat or stab the heart. We cant be sure.
Well, its an ancient Bible story after all, so there is left much room for speculation.

And thats a good thing, I think, because filling the "gaps" with our favorite fantasy according to our own "taste" makes dealing with this "stuff" to our favorite imagination here at the forum, doesnt it?

best regards
Ty.
 
I did wonder a bit, why Isaac has been stripped in all these depictions after all - it makes it "hot" for people like us with this "special interest" (especially if the body is as hot as in Jan Lievens painting), but this was surely not the intention of the painters... was it an artists way of expression the innocence of young Isaac, was it for foreshading the crucifixion when Jesus should take the sacrifice role typically depicted with an loincloth, was it part of the "sacrifice ritual", that the victim had to be naked or almost naked, was it because Abraham did not want to waste Isaacs clothing with blood (I know, a macabre and cynical idea), was it to find the spots on the (naked) body where the knife should enter the flesh... I am still not sure.
Well, while such theological justifications may have provided some cover for their consciences,
homoerotic desire was bubbling hot not far under the surface in Renaissance art,
its artists and patrons - and it wasn't necessarily even a source of much shame,
the renewed enthusiasm for Plato provided philosophical support for the 'purity'
of admiring the naked flesh of beautiful boys.
 
Sure, Tygorn, this story is on its place here. Such kinds of sacrifice is not my thing, but it is interesting indeed how old painters and artists treated the subject in their work, often with a hidden (homo)erotic touch. You make an interesting point comparing this sacrifice with the story of JC. But to my opinion, there is a big difference, by the fact that Christ more or less volunteered to take up the role, while Isaac was forced to it. To me, this is anyway a very controversial event in the Bible. The bloodsthust of a God, and the way a man, a father accepts to carry out God's will, whatever it is....
 
Isaac is one example, where the dialogue clearly indicates that the "boy" was too young to understand what was happening, yet imagery sometimes depicts him as nearly adult.
Today, respect for legal issues, and even the wishes of host sites, often make it impossible to showcase the diversity of the imagery in classical paintings.
 
I think we may not forget the cultural and historical background. I was surprised myself when doing my "research" about this topic, that in these ancient times "human sacrifices" for tribal gods were common and not an exceptional cruelty as we may consider this event today. Abraham and Isaac lived in times where this was usual practice and both presumably knew that this may happen. Abraham was presumably not even surprised, that his "own god" did demand this from him and Isaac as the "first born" was especially endangered to become a victim of human sacrifice rituals. That may also explain why Isaac did not resist or run away: Maybe because he was really as a kid or a child under complete control of his father or because the tribal social structure of their time and the society they lived in did not allow any resistance.
The artists on the other side creating religous paintings about this bible story, were influenced by the conditions of their own time and tried to set different points, creating also some obvious S/M- and homoerotic references under the disguise of religion. For example, and that is another reason why I love the "Abraham and Isaac" painting so much, is the use of force and violence on Isaac as discussed - did Abraham had to use force on Isaac? Its only suggesting, only a hint about this, but while scholars argue, that Abraham was already very old and a strong youth like Isaac could easily overcome him if he wanted to do this. This painting is suggesting the exact opposite: here Isaac is already older, a teenager who obviously did not want to die. Since he as already been stripped, you can see that he is more of slender and skinny build, while Abraham on the other side is portrayed as a powerful hunk despite his old age, holding Isaacs arm in firm grip and looking so powerful as if he could break his sons arm or neck with ease. There would have been no escape for Isaac even if he wanted, the painting is saying in my opinion. So there is no need to believe exclusively, that Isaac was a child, there are other interpretations possible (sorry for re-posting the pic, just for illustration of my thoughts).
I found some other classics meanwhile I like very much. I hope I may add them. I did not expect this thread would be refreshed once again.

abraham_and_isaac.jpg68995.jpgisaac_carrying_the_wood.jpgsac1.jpgVermiglio Giuseppe - Sacrificio di Isacco.JPG
 
Nice thread, Tygorn, and some gorgeous images.

Regarding whether Isaac willingly submitted to the proceedings, note the story of the daughter of Jephthah (Judges 11:30–39). Jephthah had to sacrifice her to fulfill a vow that he'd made to God, and told her so. Daughter asked for two months' leave to go the mountains with her companions and bewail her virginity, which was granted; at the end of the two months, she returned, and was duly slaughtered and burnt-offering'd. So we've got at least one Old Testament situation in which the human sacrificial victim submitted, despite an excellent opportunity to escape.

There'd be a number of good reasons to bind Isaac, even if he was OK with being sacrificed. It might make the business less unpleasant for him, by reducing the likelihood that a last-second flinch would lead to his being stabbed or slashed in a painful but not quickly fatal way, perhaps necessitating additional blows with the knife. Similarly, if he were held firmly in place, it'd make it easier for Abraham to hit the right spot. Another point is that if he weren't bound, his final convulsions might well lead to his falling off of the altar and scattering the wood, forcing Abraham to put everything back together before the offering could be burnt.

I don't know if the story of Isaac would lend itself to a story of the sort that we like here. So much of what makes for a good crucifixion story is the deliberate humiliation and the prolonged and intentional torture. There's not really a good way to incorporate these into the tale of Isaac's sacrifice.
 
Thank you, frost.
You are completely right. As already mentioned this was a misunderstanding since english is not my native language and I used the word "story" without getting aware that "story" in this forum is meant for "user-generated content" or "fictional S/M story". As you say, without "intentional violence or pain" is doesnt make much sense to turn the biblical Isaac tale into a S/M story. We cant finally be sure, why Isaac was stripped and bound, your points are very valid, my theory may add, that it was part of handling every "human sacrifice" vitim, old or young, this way during the ritual and since this paractice was common and Abraham may have seen the practice himself on other victims among these ancient tribes and God has "ordered" to do this with Isaac, he simply handled Isaac the same way other sacrifice victims were treated, even if the boy was his own son. The obedience to his "God" was more important for him. It may have served to restrain the victim in case of (intentional or unintentional) resistance and even if Isaac may not have resisted, it helped to kill him quickly and to complete the ritual without disturbance. There I agree with you.

My central point in this thread were the parallels between the Isaac tale and the crucifixion of Jesus more than 1000 years later meant as a "human sacrifice" under theological and cultural aspects and how all the different artistic depictions of both events incorporated similar S/M-, homoerotic and bondage- and nakedness-related themes and aspects we know from our ...ehm.. "special interest" here at the forum, more or less "hidden" under the disguise of and inspired by faith-related and religious art and biblical themes and how they are connected in the one or other way to these ...ehm... "special feelings" we have when we look at such images or read stories about it.
And, by the way, of course Jesus and Isaac are not the only bible topics with S/M references. You could add, beside others, for example, also how Joseph was sold into slavery ... but that is another story ...eh... tale...

Thank you all for your feedback and that discussions like this are possible here at this forum. I hope this thread can rest in peace now.

best regards
Ty.
 
I think the difference between the sacrifice of Isaac & crucifixion is that the former was more or less a private thing between Isaac, Abraham & God, the images done by artists allow us in on the scenario, & of course like St Sebastian it's an excuse for erotic imagery of bare flesh. What fascinates me about crucifixion is that it was far from a private event, basically it was torture, & gross sexual assault & abuse done very publicly in front of as large a crowd as the victim attracted - and in Christ's execution that must have been quite a large number of people due to the larger number of folk there for the Passover and that only days earlier huge crowds turned out to welcome his arrival, the bitter disappointment in him must have been a large enough motive for all those people, now feeling cheated & let down, to turn out again to gladly watch his punishment.

It's the public humiliation that makes crucifixion special, that together with the actual pose of hanging with outstretched arms that lifts the chest (plus the breasts in a woman) and stretches the abdomen thus creating a highly erotic pose, add that to naked torment & it had to have been a unique experience for everyone present to watch.
 
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