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Messaline is wondering ...

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I find that speaking about relations coming in a drunkeness'condition is a little too much restricted : in France , and all the south european countries, we are inheriting of a "mâle" ( patriarcal ) culture and women are yet too much submitted to the male'rule, even if it's actually changing ; in many cities , the girls cant wear a mini skirt in the street , without to be view like "easy girls" ( filles faciles ) , even prostitutes !
In France, there are yet around of 150 / 180 viols each year ( for those which are known !) !
More and more , many people begin to fight these bad view showing women like men'preys , fortunatelly , but we've yet much work to do that accredited ...
I like to be sexy and in summer , to wear a mini skirt : generally, I've not problems but , from time to time, I see well some insistent sights , or even some remarks not always welcomed ...
But I hope in the future and be assured , men of CF, that even if here I like sometimes to play a victim, I'm not in reality ... I try, at least ...:D
Same problems in my Country, but much more harder, than in Europe or USA.
 
40 years ago this month I was sexually assaulted by an older Homosexual and was (whilst under duress) forced to commit Fellatio....Even though I couldn't finish him off (so to speak)...I can quite understand a woman's point of view regarding blow jobs,and it's unfortunately shaped my attitude towards certain members of the male population, as I'm not in any way that way inclined,I'm a strictly Heterosexual person.....!!
(this is the first time I've gone public regarding my experience.....ok ?? )

The #metoo movement has been about this, raising awareness of just how many people have been placed in uncomfortable and unpleasant situations. It hides under the surface, can we ever really know how many are marked as you are by a past experience outside your control?
Thanks for sharing.
 
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@Gibbs505 ...I concur.
As much as I love and adore women,I'm always socially awkward around them,to the point that I'm perpetually frustrated.
I'm now in the Autumn of my lifespan and becoming resigned to the fact that I'll never achieve any of my sexual ambitions.
Although my thoughts are quite deviant,in reality I couldn't bring myself to commit an act of Rape (even if it's consensual role-play)
nor would I raise my hand to a woman,i take my frustration out on inanimate objects...
I'm VERY conscientious and morally sound.
(try telling that to my perverse thoughts !!)
Having been unsuccessfully married yeah we've had fights, arguments,and all that jazz.
Ironically in real life most of my best friends are female and yeah I love them dearly....
but still I go home alone and take my kink into my own hands,(you know what I mean)
I'm shit at finding anyone who's not accounted for,and who's willing to "experiment" in the bedroom,so to speak....
I get this syndrome in that women are an alien species,compared to me,(yeah bullshit I know....!!) but try being in MY shoes,and putting up with a permanent feeling of inadequacy and zero-confidence....deafness & loneliness sucks !! :(:( Its got to the point that I feel that I'm neither young,attractive muscular nor well-endowed,pretty pathetic really.
(which no doubt goes a long way to explain my fantasies revolving around being a near naked slave condemned to crucifixion??)
What I'd give to have a slow dance,a snog and a bit of fun afterwards....looks like that bird has flown,but I STILL have some small hope,that one day....perhaps ??
(sorry to ramble on,and hopefully it's not too off-topic ??)
Ok I've said my bit,and I'll let you get on with things. Safe Crux...TX
Oh...and one more thing....
40 years ago this month I was sexually assaulted by an older Homosexual and was (whilst under duress) forced to commit Fellatio....Even though I couldn't finish him off (so to speak)...I can quite understand a woman's point of view regarding blow jobs,and it's unfortunately shaped my attitude towards certain members of the male population, as I'm not in any way that way inclined,I'm a strictly Heterosexual person.....!!
(this is the first time I've gone public regarding my experience.....ok ?? )
Thank you so much for the honesty. Your feelings of frustration and inadequacy are, I'm sure, shared widely in this community (certainly by me) and in the general world. We all should remember that the number of Hugh Hefners in the world is very small. And I wonder how many ordinary people share a lifetime with a partner who comes close to sharing and fulfilling their fantasies and desires?
 
Interestingly the Nobel Peace Prize has just gone to two recipients, Dr. Dennis Mukwege, a Congolese man who has fought against sexual violence against women in the many conflicts in his country and Nadia Murad, an Iraqi woman taken prisoner and raped by ISIS.

I will say this about the topic in general. Over the span of history, the horrors done against women outnumber by orders of magnitude the occasional injustice done to a few falsely accused men. That is an indisputable fact. The other indisputable fact is that justice is never perfect, since it's a human creation. But, as unfair as it is, the price of a man occasionally suffering under a false accusation-especially when the hurt is a survivable one like not getting a particular job or a promotion-is small compared to the harm done by allowing predators to go unchallenged. So while we should try our best not to err, we always will at times and the safer course is to err on the side of the woman. And I say this as a man..
 
but among civilised men a modicum of self-control is a thing
That should be all there is to say, but life isn´t black and white. Most times you find a lot a grey.
First - no is no and that without exception.
That said, there is a reocurring situation where young people have a party in a apartment, they have fun and two of them finish in a bed. Next morning the girl - when getting pressured by her parents - gets scared and crys rape (no theoretical assumption, it happens in a town of 500000 people two or three times a year). The price of the boy suffering under the false accusation is anything but survivable. Even when in the end the accusation is refuted, he has weeks or month of fear and concerns and his reputation is lasting marred.
For the society as a whole I can consent with windar as there are a lot more women misused than men falsely accused, but if you are the victim of false accusation you may think otherwise.
Theoretical deliberations is one thing, to do justice to real people is byzantine. To err on the side of a human is never acceptable, regardless wether woman or man.
Sorry if I was lecturing, but the theme "violence against woman" has been an important part of my life for decades ( and no, I have never been accused as violent).
 
That should be all there is to say, but life isn´t black and white. Most times you find a lot a grey.
First - no is no and that without exception.
That said, there is a reocurring situation where young people have a party in a apartment, they have fun and two of them finish in a bed. Next morning the girl - when getting pressured by her parents - gets scared and crys rape (no theoretical assumption, it happens in a town of 500000 people two or three times a year). The price of the boy suffering under the false accusation is anything but survivable. Even when in the end the accusation is refuted, he has weeks or month of fear and concerns and his reputation is lasting marred.
Sorry if I was lecturing, but the theme "violence against woman" has been an important part of my life for decades ( and no, I have never been accused as violent).

For a town of 500,000 in Germany you can expect 44-45* reported rapes of women (plus additional rapes committed against men) each year and you are arguing that we should allow the argument that drunk women are asking for it because? You average of 2.5 average of false accusations out that 44.5 gives a roughly 5-6% incidence of false allegations which is about in line with the majority of international studies on the subject. You might want to look up how many rape allegations actually come to court and how many of those actually end in conviction? But basically unless Germany is a complete outlier from other countries of similar levels of development the number of reported rapes is an under estimate of rape occurrences and the number of rapes successfully prosecuted is only about 5-10%.

There are miscarriages of justice it is true but what is clear from rape statistics is that justice fails the victim far and away more than the relative handful of falsely accused.

I would actually think that better explaining to men that drunk is out of bounds and the other legal boundaries in consent would do far more to control the total number of both rapes and false accusations and perhaps with time ensure more actual rapists are convicted. There is much more to do beyond that but arguing that drunk women (or even drunken male rape and sexual assault victims) are responsible for the assaults they endured is not by any stretch of the imagination productive in pursuit of a better society.



*based of 2009 statistics of course if anyone has more up to date ones a refined figure can be derived.

PS: it might be the time for a mod to create a new thread for posts on this particular subject rather than clog up Messaline's thread.
 
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There is no way that I would disagree that a Gentleman would never take advantage of a lady who has had too much to drink and there are men who would (blame their parents for not raising them right).

That being said I ALSO know women who when they have had too much to drink (and are no where near the 'I don't know what I'm doing stage') get very amorous and handsie. They are all over the guy, in some cases ANY guy.

Then the following morning they want to cry rape?

No that's not fair. And the fact that our society says it is, is just plain wrong. And they are also treating women as STUPID.

"I'm sorry dear, you got too drunk to know what you were doing, nobody made you do, you did to yourself but that's ok we'll allow you to blame the equally drunk guy, because he's a man and should know better."

OMG, can you possibly be any more condescending and treat me like a child?

Rights imply responsibility. I have a RIGHT to not be raped. I have a RESPONSIBILITY to not get myself so blind stupid drunk that I have no idea what I am doing.

And for full disclosure, my first lesbian experience was after I had lost a basketball game and had too much to drink. I woke up the following morning in bed with another woman and that wasn't my intention. But it happened. And down the road I realized I was bi-sexual. Hooray for me.

Should I have charged her with sexual assault or can only men be charged with that shit? Because under the rules of today she SEXUALLY ASSAULTED AND PENETRATED ME because I was too drunk to ask her to stop.

No I don't believe all men are innocent and I'm all for castrating real rapists.

But I also have no sympathy for a chick who gets herself drunk, wakes up the next morning next to a guy she didn't intend to screw and wants to charge him with a crime because she's embarrassed.

OH for god's sake, grow up!

kisses

willowfall
 
Girls, have a brain and act responsibly; behave in a way that encourages men to treat you the way you want.

Men, have a brain and act responsibly; behave toward women respecting them as an equal creation of God.

And when you can, both have tons of fun, f*****g your brains out!
 
But I also have no sympathy for a chick who gets herself drunk, wakes up the next morning next to a guy she didn't intend to screw and wants to charge him with a crime because she's embarrassed.

OH for god's sake, grow up!

kisses

willowfall

Grown ups do not demean rape victims and grown ups attempt as best they can to base their decisions on the evidence.

Current evidence from the US suggests that 2/3 rape and sexual assault victims never report the crime against them. Further evidence from across the globe suggests that somewhere from 88%-98% of rape accusations have a sound basis trending to somewhere around the 95% mark after drawing on multiple studies. Yet you base your argument on a supposed prevalence of a particular scenario that represents at most 4% of instances and potentially as few as 0.7% of instances.

The other thing is you claim to advocate a really over the top punishment which actually strikes me as more likely to help rapists escape from conviction for their crimes. After as pointed above in this thread very few rapes are clear cut crimes of violence, many people are related to the people who rape them and more know their rapist prior to the incident. You are further pressuring victims not to bring charges. Prison is considered bad enough a punishment by most victims of rape. It is also considered an adequate sanction in for example a nation whose very constitution forbids cruel and unusual punishment.

It is really easy to operate a policy of not taking sexual advantage of drunk people. most teenagers actually manage this just fine.
 
Grown ups do not demean rape victims and grown ups attempt as best they can to base their decisions on the evidence.

Current evidence from the US suggests that 2/3 rape and sexual assault victims never report the crime against them. Further evidence from across the globe suggests that somewhere from 88%-98% of rape accusations have a sound basis trending to somewhere around the 95% mark after drawing on multiple studies. Yet you base your argument on a supposed prevalence of a particular scenario that represents at most 4% of instances and potentially as few as 0.7% of instances.

The other thing is you claim to advocate a really over the top punishment which actually strikes me as more likely to help rapists escape from conviction for their crimes. After as pointed above in this thread very few rapes are clear cut crimes of violence, many people are related to the people who rape them and more know their rapist prior to the incident. You are further pressuring victims not to bring charges. Prison is considered bad enough a punishment by most victims of rape. It is also considered an adequate sanction in for example a nation whose very constitution forbids cruel and unusual punishment.

It is really easy to operate a policy of not taking sexual advantage of drunk people. most teenagers actually manage this just fine.
I think we are on a non-productive argument here. Those 95% studies are totally bogus, based on no verifiable facts. I suspect that the large majority of claims are honest from the point of view of the claimant. But statistics to show a number like 95% are widely reported and widely debunked.

I do agree that over the top punishments result in extensive plea bargains. If I beat the crap out of someone in a bar and get three years, a non-violent (not causing significant physical harm) rapist should not get 30 years.
 
I think we are on a non-productive argument here. Those 95% studies are totally bogus, based on no verifiable facts. I suspect that the large majority of claims are honest from the point of view of the claimant. But statistics to show a number like 95% are widely reported and widely debunked.

I am not sure who you think has been debunking but there are an increasing number of studies on the incidence of rape and its reporting by victims and its investigation and prosecutions by law enforcement and judicial authorities and the outcomes of cases. Maybe if you are going to claim a study is debunked you need to cite evidence such as an appropriately rigorous study that supports your claim. Because the data while obviously demonstrating a range of outcomes based on points of interpretation and regional variations is increasingly robust.

I do agree that over the top punishments result in extensive plea bargains. If I beat the crap out of someone in a bar and get three years, a non-violent (not causing significant physical harm) rapist should not get 30 years.

Plea bargains are thankfully not such an issue in most jurisdictions outside the US but the essential truth supported by yet more research is that punishments need to be proportionate to the offence in order for juries and judges to be willing to convict on those crimes.
 
I have a brother who has a masters in statistics. You can prove almost anything you want with statistics, true or false. And statistics like "2/3 of are unreported" is in today's parlance "fake news". Or shall I say just bad statistical evidence.

As Jonathon Swift said "Falsehood flies while the truth limps along behind."

So like the false charges against those lacrosse players a couple of years ago, because the accuser was a woman she is automatically right? Even when it was proven she was lying. Or the case that just broke where a number of teenage girls accused a boy of sexual assault, ruined his life, got him a criminal record and chased out of school AND THEN admitted they made the whole thing up.

And then the DA refused to press charges against the girls or expunge the boy's record?

And then you wave the US Constitution in my face when it requires a fair trial in which a person can only be convicted on evidence in a criminal court 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. Not on a belief, a feeling or an opinion, beyond a reasonable doubt.

I'll admit I'm an "eye for an eye" kind of girl but I am also for taking responsibility for my actions upon myself. I owe that to my fellow citizens.

But the system only works when their is justice for all. And in this country a person is innocent until PROVEN guilt. They aren't guilt because I said so and there is such a thing as contributory negligence.

There are victims of rape and other sexual assaults. I know some, two are great friends of mine and in one case I was her support as she went through it. In the case of "date rape" it is rarely as black and white as many people make it out to be.

kisses

willowfall
 
I am not sure who you think has been debunking but there are an increasing number of studies on the incidence of rape and its reporting by victims and its investigation and prosecutions by law enforcement and judicial authorities and the outcomes of cases. Maybe if you are going to claim a study is debunked you need to cite evidence such as an appropriately rigorous study that supports your claim. Because the data while obviously demonstrating a range of outcomes based on points of interpretation and regional variations is increasingly robust.



Plea bargains are thankfully not such an issue in most jurisdictions outside the US but the essential truth supported by yet more research is that punishments need to be proportionate to the offence in order for juries and judges to be willing to convict on those crimes.
You have not cited a study. The main study I'm aware of reported that 5% of the claims were proven false. So we know at least 5% were false. We also see in the same study 44% did not proceed to a trail. That does not mean that all 44% were true or all 44% were false. We have no evidence either way. But to claim the study proves that only 5% of claims were false is totally wrong. Have you actually read the study and the statistics? Do you know the confidence interval of the findings? Do you know the guards against bias in the data selection? Do you know the reputation and/or bias of the researchers?
 
I have a brother who has a masters in statistics. You can prove almost anything you want with statistics, true or false. And statistics like "2/3 of are unreported" is in today's parlance "fake news". Or shall I say just bad statistical evidence.

As Jonathon Swift said "Falsehood flies while the truth limps along behind."

So like the false charges against those lacrosse players a couple of years ago, because the accuser was a woman she is automatically right? Even when it was proven she was lying. Or the case that just broke where a number of teenage girls accused a boy of sexual assault, ruined his life, got him a criminal record and chased out of school AND THEN admitted they made the whole thing up.

And then the DA refused to press charges against the girls or expunge the boy's record?

And then you wave the US Constitution in my face when it requires a fair trial in which a person can only be convicted on evidence in a criminal court 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. Not on a belief, a feeling or an opinion, beyond a reasonable doubt.

I'll admit I'm an "eye for an eye" kind of girl but I am also for taking responsibility for my actions upon myself. I owe that to my fellow citizens.

But the system only works when their is justice for all. And in this country a person is innocent until PROVEN guilt. They aren't guilt because I said so and there is such a thing as contributory negligence.

There are victims of rape and other sexual assaults. I know some, two are great friends of mine and in one case I was her support as she went through it. In the case of "date rape" it is rarely as black and white as many people make it out to be.

kisses

willowfall

If you have a study that supports your argument then cite it, I am sure your brother should be able to help.

Yet the point remains the judicial system in most countries is deliberately engineered to favour the assumption of innocence. This is one of the key reasons why victim blaming is so uncalled for. Because yes an awful lot of rape cases are not black and white. They require judgement calls on what constitutes are reasonable expectation in a given circumstance and this is something that juries in common law countries and judges in civil law codes are there to provide. Again no need for victim blaming.

Further but there is no evidence of a widespread occurrence of false accusations of rape and a growing body of evidence for the underreporting of rape and sexual assault.

There are instances of false accusations that led to convictions but we know about because they have been revealed. That is the work of proper investigative and judicial processes. Those processes function best when supported by an evidenced based agenda and the evidence does in fact firmly uphold the notion that an accusation of rape or sexual misconduct is likely to have a solid basis in truth.

Something you seem to be particularly allergic to.
 
This discussion is way off what this thread is about. May I have the last word as a professional law enforcement officer? When Barb and I arrest someone, they are guilty. End of story.-Stan Goldman

No kisses, not even one.. Yuck!!!
 
You have not cited a study. The main study I'm aware of reported that 5% of the claims were proven false. So we know at least 5% were false. We also see in the same study 44% did not proceed to a trail. That does not mean that all 44% were true or all 44% were false. We have no evidence either way. But to claim the study proves that only 5% of claims were false is totally wrong. Have you actually read the study and the statistics? Do you know the confidence interval of the findings? Do you know the guards against bias in the data selection? Do you know the reputation and/or bias of the researchers?

Well it is getting late but yeah I have drawn on studies undertaken by the Home Office in England and Wales, The Swedish judicial system, an international data base of comparative rape statistics which is probably the weakest as its most recent data seems to date from 2009 and some statistical studies from the US. I will try and trawl through them and see if I can find the best links to the more relevant documents tomorrow but it is getting late here ( 2:19am) and I am overdue for bed but I do agree I need to show you mine if you show me yours.

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The main study I'm aware of reported that 5% of the claims were proven false. So we know at least 5% were false.

See that is an interesting claim as in fact the studies I have seen were a lot more coy, very few of them claimed that the claims characterised as without merit were "proven false". In fact in 2013 for example Home Office statistics revealed that of almost 12,000 rape investigated there were only 179 convictions for false accusations which actually suggests a proven false sample of some 1.5%. Much lower than your figure. So you may your source with me or where you think your source came from so I can go look.

In the meantime I need to go to bed and it would be great if a mod could move this latest chain of posts into their own thread separate from Messaline's
 
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Messaline I would love for you to be my 'victum'!
What is that ?:oops:

(this is the first time I've gone public regarding my experience.....ok ?? )
And we liked , but, be rassured , who in this world can say that he did all what he was wishing ? Nobody, I think ...;)
 
In the meantime I need to go to bed and it would be great if a mod could move this latest chain of posts into their own thread separate from Messaline's
Why ? It's not necessary : I like this discussion , even if it's not really the topic of my thread ; I'm always regretting that the discussions are rare at CF , so, let this one "quiet" ...:D
 
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