messaline
Crucified Amazon
Which is perhaps the most exciting moment, Jedakk ! At this point, we'll be one with the wood !!!
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Most Painful Part Of Crucifixion
- Thread starter naildance
- Start date
windar
Teller of Tales
See what ? Sorry, but I've nothing ...
Nothing? We'll always have Paris
The cat might have a different opinion
D
Deleted member jedakk
Guest
Which is perhaps the most exciting moment, Jedakk ! At this point, we'll be one with the wood !!!
I have had the thought many times that a crucifixion victim with nails through her wrists and feet becomes a part of her cross. And yes, I've had at least one of my characters say that in a story, because my characters speak what I think a person might feel in that situation. Here's what Ursula thought about it in The Three Witches:
She watched, groaning with each of the four additional blows he delivered to drive the nail in until its head was against the top of her foot, solidly locked into the heavy timber. Iron nails through my body. I’m part of the cross now. And I’m dying just a little every moment.
Though sometimes there is waiting for your cross...Yes, indeed ! It's that I think ; I cant in any case be separated from the wood and "him" and I are totally one !
It's what it make the beauty of this torture !
At home, in real live, I've MY cross and she's mine , only and definitively MINE !
nux581
Magistrate
There is every reason to believe that reactions to having nails pounded into your wrists and feet is going to be rather idiosyncratic. It will involve your state as the victim, with senses dulled by shock or heightened by adrenalin. And even the whims of your executioners! Are they bored and in a hurry? Or sadistically intent on extracting every drop of torment from your fear-crazed soul? Jeddak's Sabina is a good case in point. Driven by her mad lust for self-immolation via a public crucifixion (I can get behind that!), she is primed to experience every nuance of her nailing. Her whipping did not flail the skin off her back, and she did experience massive blood loss. There was a break in the action while she was stripped of her loin-cloth, and the sentence read, allowing her to gather her wits somewhat. I have to believe that every nerve in her body was quivering in anticipation of the cold iron.
Her executioners, however, were "private pay" and business-like. They did not draw the affair out, except to ensure Sabrina was conscious for the spiking of her feet. I have read third- or fourth-hand accounts of soldiers augmenting the torment of nailing with slivers of bone shoved into flesh, and other indignities. One account has a crown of thorns pressed into the scalp!
For someone with a mind gone through fear and pain, and numb with shock, the ordeal of being fixed to the tree with nails might pass in a blur. If the executioners allow it, that is. Everything I have read regarding their attitudes towards rebellious slaves causes me to believe that, when allowed sufficient time, Romans were going to punish the miscreants as severely as possible. They feared and hated rebellious slaves and, as fear was an unbecoming emotion for the Roman citizen, it made them hate all the more intensely. Hence the very public agony and humiliation of the cross. I have to believe that every Roman citizen schooled themselves to enjoy viewing the torment of the crucified.
But when there were thousands to put up... Must've been shortcuts. Slap-dash put-em-up fast affairs. Ironically, I can see myself suffering longer if nailed and raised up fast as part of a large group...
Her executioners, however, were "private pay" and business-like. They did not draw the affair out, except to ensure Sabrina was conscious for the spiking of her feet. I have read third- or fourth-hand accounts of soldiers augmenting the torment of nailing with slivers of bone shoved into flesh, and other indignities. One account has a crown of thorns pressed into the scalp!
For someone with a mind gone through fear and pain, and numb with shock, the ordeal of being fixed to the tree with nails might pass in a blur. If the executioners allow it, that is. Everything I have read regarding their attitudes towards rebellious slaves causes me to believe that, when allowed sufficient time, Romans were going to punish the miscreants as severely as possible. They feared and hated rebellious slaves and, as fear was an unbecoming emotion for the Roman citizen, it made them hate all the more intensely. Hence the very public agony and humiliation of the cross. I have to believe that every Roman citizen schooled themselves to enjoy viewing the torment of the crucified.
But when there were thousands to put up... Must've been shortcuts. Slap-dash put-em-up fast affairs. Ironically, I can see myself suffering longer if nailed and raised up fast as part of a large group...
James 2nd
Spectator
This I imagine is the way most crucifixion were performed with the victims legs pulled up and nailed at the sides of the upright. With this method the genitals are fully exposed and would be pierced or nailed to the upright as well. A sedile would probably be used to enlarge the rectum or vagina and thus providing some support.
danielm09
Magistrate
So with your crucifixion why were your feet not nailed?
I really don't know.
D
Deleted member jedakk
Guest
That was what I had in mind when I wrote that part. There were things they had to do before they could drive that first nail, including removing her shackles and neck collar, get her on her feet, strip her loincloth, and go through the ritual of reading her sentence. Each of those tasks took a little time, but Sabina was acutely aware that each brought her closer to those nails. Perhaps she could draw out the process by fighting them, but these were men used to managing strong men fighting for their lives, and her struggles were ridiculous in comparison.
Sabina begged her domina, Julia Lepida, not to have her crucified. But she always addressed her as "Domina," as a slave addressing her mistress. Sabina - or Julia Lepida - was lost in her role as slave. Unless she broke her role and addressed her "domina" by her true name, her "domina" didn't dare stop what was about to happen. And there is also the question of whether she would ever have stopped the crucifixion; no one would have believed the truth, and from the "domina's" perspective, if this "slave" lived, what might she do next? Maybe it would be better for her to carry this through to the end in any case.
Sabina's heart was pounding, her terror mounting as the carnifex read her sentence and ordered them to "place the slave on the cross." Absolute panic set in when she felt them dragging her down to the ground, her helplessness in their iron grip as they forced her naked body into position on the beam. She knew then that any hope was gone. They were going to nail her to the cross. Part of her was screaming in panic, while deep down, a part of her was watching wide-eyed, anticipating the only thing that could fulfill the aching need in her.
The executioners were driven to haste by two things: First, Balbus thought there was a possibility that Julia Lepida might give in, have mercy, and stop the crucifixion altogether. And second, there was a storm coming and he wanted it done before the rain hit.
Once her wrists were nailed, Balbus wanted his people to take their time and give the crowd a show. He crucified slaves and criminals for pay, and he had a reputation to maintain for delivering full and just punishment that everyone could see, as well as being entertained. So they took their time lifting her up, hanging her on the cross, and then letting her struggle with her feet free until she fainted. Likewise they were in no hurry with the rest of it - installing her cornu, nailing her feet, and placing her titulus. Sabina had an agonizingly long time to see and know that these things were coming and to feel every blow of the hammer until she was truly a part of the cross, inseparable.
Up until modern times, what we consider to be "civilized" people have watched with fascination as the condemned were publicly tortured and executed in some of the most grotesque and cruel ways imaginable. They still do in parts of the world that we don't consider to be particularly civilized.
When the Romans adopted crucifixion as a punishment I suppose it was one of those new foreign things they could add to their repertoire of really bad ways to punish people. It apparently caught on, and by the time a generation had passed, no one could actually remember a time when the sight of crucified slaves and criminals was not common. It had become the status quo, and there was no reason to change it, at least until Christianity came along and gained traction.
nux581
Magistrate
Is this a "woman" thing? Because the dark longing for such a horrific and final experience is present in me, and evidently in other female participants in this forum. Not that I would ever act on it! But do men have such dreams of abnegation?
No Nux, it's not just a woman thing, but women are the majority of those wishing it in fantasy or in life, here in this group anyway
It's different, too. Help me out ladies, it's hard to put this clearly but we expect the woman to be the object, the man to be the subject. A woman on a cross is a natural expression of female vulnerability and sexual availability. A crucified man is somehow an transgression of the natural order, strength made weak, power made helpless. I think this is how we see it subconsciously from our modern perspective. I know that historically it was largely, almost exclusively men who were crucified, and we are surrounded in the mainstream with male crux images. But for the modern man it is a release from expectation, helplessness that gives a perverse form of freedom.
Or maybe I'm talking complete shit
messaline
Crucified Amazon
Are you saying that you couldn't try or that you could ?...
If you are , a day, in the circumstances to do , DO IT ! You'll not regret : they are so much wonderful moments !
... but in safety, of course !
mp5stab
Hair and Nails
The subject object dicotomy an interesting one.No Nux, it's not just a woman thing, but women are the majority of those wishing it in fantasy or in life, here in this group anyway
It's different, too. Help me out ladies, it's hard to put this clearly but we expect the woman to be the object, the man to be the subject. A woman on a cross is a natural expression of female vulnerability and sexual availability. A crucified man is somehow an transgression of the natural order, strength made weak, power made helpless. I think this is how we see it subconsciously from our modern perspective. I know that historically it was largely, almost exclusively men who were crucified, and we are surrounded in the mainstream with male crux images. But for the modern man it is a release from expectation, helplessness that gives a perverse form of freedom.
Or maybe I'm talking complete shit
"Men act, women are".
Basically, most men tend to be valued for their actions and achievements, and most women tend to be valued for their appearance. It sucks to be only worth as much as how good you look to some people, but it also has gotta suck to have to live up to being a "man of action", so like Phelbas said, it's often paradoxically freeing when a man loses his agency. But I think more than any pseudo-academic rant, the real answer is a boatload of sadomasochism on top of regular human nature.
messaline
Crucified Amazon
I agree only if you notice that it's the result of our Culture ! In some other Cultures, they were women who were the basis of the society, I mean matriarchal societies ...
"Hum, "sadomasochism" is perhaps not the true word ; it signifies the pain for the pain ; but, here, there are many women who dont even envisage the lesser suffering in their real life ; so, it's more a question of fantasy ... a view of the spirit (I'm not judging, only I note the fact
) ... For me, I can accept some levels of pain in real life, but it's to transcend my libido and all the pleasure that it can bring to me ; so, you see that it's not only pain for pain ...
Yes, the dark longing, as you put it, is there for many of the female participants here. But I agree with Messa. At least in my case, it is a matter of fantasy and pleasure ... something deep in the imagination.
nux581
Magistrate
Vulnerable, yes! I am not so sure about the availability. My own fantasy feelings are of atonement and penance. An object of derision, yes, but a subject of ultimate rejection by society.
When I see a man on a cross, I see his soul bound and his rage forever constrained. That's why I imagine that the vicious scourging is for subduing a man prior to nailing. As a woman I would go meekly to my cross. Terrified, yes, but unwilling to fight. Perhaps even to run. Maybe it's just a personal thing.
D
Deleted member jedakk
Guest
People's fantasies about being crucified and how they would act in that situation differ. Like some women here, Sabina had that "dark longing" within her. But unlike most, it had burned in her until it became an obsession that she could not escape. I created Sabina to embody the idea of how powerful an obsession like that can be. The Serpent's Eye got its title from something Balbus says towards the end:
"There are women who like it rough, there are some who like to be tied up and whipped, and there are a few, like she was, that don’t have any limits. There is a spell that binds them the same way a mouse is fascinated by a serpent’s eye. They will not save themselves, and in the end, it devours them."
Sabina's obsession with the cross exhausted her. When she witnessed Lucilla's crucifixion, she reached her limit. She had to be crucified even though it meant death. She was totally committed to finding a way to get herself nailed to a cross. She didn't really want to die, but she couldn't escape the "eye of the serpent" - the idea of being the slave hanging on a cross.
She had been tied to a cross several times, but it was never enough. And in a BDSM setting, there really isn't much room for a submissive to struggle against being roped to a cross; there's too much chance of hurting the Dom or themselves. In Sabina's case, her Dom could not have overwhelmed her and forced her onto the cross. Sabina had always had to submit and cooperate to some degree to get where she wanted to go, and it was always less than she needed.
But Sabina wanted to experience crucifixion the way slaves usually went to the cross - panicking, struggling, terrified. She didn't want to have to hold back in case someone could get hurt, and she didn't want to have to submit and cooperate with her executioners. She wanted to be overpowered, forced down onto the cross, overwhelmed by their strength, naked and in public, displayed and humiliated for all to see.
And in the end, she got exactly what she had to have to fulfill her "dark longing."