My 3D works regarding forced labour in mine

[fallenmystic]

In the end, let's meet halfway. Punish the games you find too sexualized by not buying them. I'll reward the games that do it by buying them. Deal? This way we don't impose our moral preferences on neighbours. Market will decide what sells and what doesn't. Peace.

Fair enough, although if I have to subject my taste in video games to the market share alone, I'd be playing such games like Fortnite or Battleground all day now

Anyway, while I'd still welcome occasional opportunities to discuss about such subjects here, I certainly don't want it to devolve into pages of heated arguments. So I agree that it's best that we agree to disagree on this matter with respect.

On a side note, I'd ask you to consider posting your artwork in a different thread. I find it lovely honestly, but as you can see from the title, I created this thread to keep my own 3D artworks related to a quite specific theme which I've been pursuing with my ongoing story and and a video game project.

As such, I don't want to see too many images not made by myself here, especially when I can only work at a slow pace. I'm afraid it may confuse other people who browse the thread in the gallery mode, if there are more generic dungeon torture images than my series I intended to post here.

I don't care that much about text posts, by the way. So it's totally fine with me if you want to post not-strictly relevant things occasionally here, though.

Thanks!

 

[doe1971]

You're right, sorry. If any moderator read this please delete my attached images in the previous two posts.

 

[Madiosi]

You're right, sorry. If any moderator read this please delete my attached images in the previous two posts.

I moved you stuff in a new own thread. You can used this thread further for more of you art.

Artwork by Doe1971

I've read the books ... Whoever played the game knows that sorceresses were using seduction as their main weapon, bewitching men, discarding them when no longer usefull ... I can count more occasions in the Witcher universe (game plus books) when the Lodge's members manipulate men in power...

www.cruxforums.com

 

[Servus Venandi]

Thanks for the compliment! And I agree with you about the narrative quality of The Witcher 3, but that is also the reason why I find such occasional "everyone wants to sleep with Geralt" or "all sorceress must wear a sexy dress" kind of things to be rather jarring.

I still love The Witcher 3 (I haven't read the book yet, though) and one of the main reason why I do so is its characters and the atmosphere. In my opinion, it's one of the best video games that depict the gritty aspect of medieval environment. Compare it to Dragon Age Inquisition (which I also think to be a good game for different reasons), for example, and its capital city looks like a shobby movie set compared to the grandeur of Novigrad. Unlike in DA:I, people in TW3 actually look and act like medieval population, with their unrefined mannerisms and dirty clothes, and so on. So it provides me highly immersive feelings when all those people live their live in such a bustling city as Novigrad.

But as soon as those pinup sorceresses come up to seduce Geralt in their full make up and revealing outfits, it just shatters my immersion. It's all too clear to me it's now the developers - not the characters - talking to me "Hey, look all these beautiful girls we made for you. How about that?" so I can't really stay immersed any more.

Why sorceresses have to always look like that in a fantasy medieval world?

View attachment 845210 View attachment 845211

And not just scorceresses, but also a sword woman too:

View attachment 845212

Of course, the characters like Yennefer or Triss are very interesting to me. But there are moments even with those characters, when I have hard time to maintain my immersion, like when Triss suddenly let out exaggerated moans like a porn star in TW2 in the bath scene, or how Yennefer and Triss trick General to enact a psedo BDSM scene, and more.

I love naked girls, and I like video games that depict a fantasy medieval world. But I don't like it when too many games try to mix them in an obvious sexist male fantasy, while no respectable studio dares to make actual sex games with quality contents.

Sorceresses in the Witcher universe wield sexuality as a political weapon at the highest levels of society. Yennefer, for example, was a hideous hunchback until she used magic to make herself attractive. That might be silly, and I can get behind what you said about immersion, but those are different arguments.

Of course, the same out can't be granted to Vess or a handful of other characters. I'm not the biggest fan of scanty armor, better suited to the beach than battle, either ... though I on occasion indulge that very trope.

...

When you play a semi-realistic medieval fantasy game and you find equal number of female warriors or rulers as male ones, that is when you can justly blame they may have pushed the PC card too far. But if you also find that all such female warriors still have to wear tight or skimpy armour, then you know that it's designed to indulge a male fantasy and can be criticized for sexism. Important thing to note here is that those two elements are not mutually exclusive but usually co-exist in a single title.
...

I don't accept the notion that "designed to indulge a male fantasy" is inherently sexist, but I suppose this is a matter of definition. What exactly is "sexism," and why does skimpy clothing qualify? Is it the disparity between how males and females dress in otherwise similar social/political positions? If Geralt dressed like Conan the Barbarian, would the issue go away or be amplified?

 

[fallenmystic]

I don't accept the notion that "designed to indulge a male fantasy" is inherently sexist, but I suppose this is a matter of definition. What exactly is "sexism," and why does skimpy clothing qualify? Is it the disparity between how males and females dress in otherwise similar social/political positions? If Geralt dressed like Conan the Barbarian, would the issue go away or be amplified?

Very interesting question indeed To begin with, let me start by reasserting that I don't blame any sexual fantasy per se, male or not (otherwise, I wouldn't be active in this community, of course). The problem I see is mostly with the proliferation of such contents, or the manner in which such elements are usually incorporated into a story.

To borrow your example, I don't have any problem if a game features a male protagonist who dresses like Conan the Barbarian. But what if, for example, more than half of all similar titles in the same genre included such characters with an exaggerated bulge upon their loincloth 'armour'? Or what if every good looking NPCs in such a game dressed like some K-Pop idols, always too eager to show their enthusiasm to serve the female player character whenever you talk to them? I have no doubt things like that would have turned off many male video games who don't find anything wrong with The Witcher series (or many other similar games, for that matter).

And such kind of cheap sexualization of characters is usually frowned upon in cinema, if the film is not intentionally made to incorporate such elements. But with video games, it's only very recently that they began to deal with subtler kind of human emotions and even now, there are many gamers who actively reject the idea that video games don't have to be all about "killing your enemies, beating the challenge, and having fun".

As such, I think the major game studios have been pampering the taste of such audiences for too long while neglecting the chances that they can improve the quality of their titles. To me, such a problem is more acutely felt in such a title like The Witcher 3, because it's an outstanding game in other respects.

As to sexism, I would very much like to see more of such elements in a game which is based on a semi-authentic medieval world. The game studios are much too afraid to depict realistic sexism that those pre-feminism era people must have shown towards women, but they don't hesitate to incorporate their own desire to sexualize women into characters that would be totally out of the character.

As such, I would have enjoyed The Witcher 3 more, if its sex scenes were far more explicit than what the developed dared to challenge those angry parents and PC crowds with, but I certainly don't want to see any more 'romance options' or another version of Vess, at the same time.

Hope it cleared up my position regarding the issue sufficiently.

 

[Servus Venandi]

Very interesting question indeed To begin with, let me start by reasserting that I don't blame any sexual fantasy per se, male or not (otherwise, I wouldn't be active in this community, of course). The problem I see is mostly with the proliferation of such contents, or the manner in which such elements are usually incorporated into a story.

To borrow your example, I don't have any problem if a game features a male protagonist who dresses like Conan the Barbarian. But what if, for example, more than half of all similar titles in the same genre included such characters with an exaggerated bulge upon their loincloth 'armour'? Or what if every good looking NPCs in such a game dressed like some K-Pop idols, always too eager to show their enthusiasm to serve the female player character whenever you talk to them? I have no doubt things like that would have turned off many male video games who don't find anything wrong with The Witcher series (or many other similar games, for that matter).

And such kind of cheap sexualization of characters is usually frowned upon in cinema, if the film is not intentionally made to incorporate such elements. But with video games, it's only very recently that they began to deal with subtler kind of human emotions and even now, there are many gamers who actively reject the idea that video games don't have to be all about "killing your enemies, beating the challenge, and having fun".

As such, I think the major game studios have been pampering the taste of such audiences for too long while neglecting the chances that they can improve the quality of their titles. To me, such a problem is more acutely felt in such a title like The Witcher 3, because it's an outstanding game in other respects.

As to sexism, I would very much like to see more of such elements in a game which is based on a semi-authentic medieval world. The game studios are much too afraid to depict realistic sexism that those pre-feminism era people must have shown towards women, but they don't hesitate to incorporate their own desire to sexualize women into characters that would be totally out of the character.

As such, I would have enjoyed The Witcher 3 more, if its sex scenes were far more explicit than what the developed dared to challenge those angry parents and PC crowds with, but I certainly don't want to see any more 'romance options' or another version of Vess, at the same time.

Hope it cleared up my position regarding the issue sufficiently.

Thanks for the reply. I'm still not sure how you define sexism, or why character fashion can in any way qualify as sexism (absent other factors—e.g. misogyny outside narrative context).

That aside, I don't disagree with much of what you wrote from a critical perspective. Unfortunately, unless male and female media interests homogenize at some point in the future, I doubt your ideal will ever be fully realized. That's not to say there isn't room for improvement across the industry (yes, Vess deserves better equipment). It's just that the recent Ghostbuster-ization crow-barred into so many entertainment franchises has probably set rational feminism back decades.

 

[fallenmystic]

Thanks for the reply. I'm still not sure how you define sexism, or why character fashion can in any way qualify as sexism (absent other factors—e.g. misogyny outside narrative context).

That aside, I don't disagree with much of what you wrote from a critical perspective. Unfortunately, unless male and female media interests homogenize at some point in the future, I doubt your ideal will ever be fully realized. That's not to say there isn't room for improvement across the industry (yes, Vess deserves better equipment). It's just that the recent Ghostbuster-ization crow-barred into so many entertainment franchises has probably set rational feminism back decades.

I think it is mainly because it wasn't my intention to define sexism in a general context (e.g. from the feminist perspective) but only such aspects of it that I believe manifested in the video games. It's similar to how saying that the romance option with Iron Bull in DA:I contains elements of BDSM doesn't mean we can define BDSM by playing that game alone.

I do agree with how you feel about the 'Ghostbuster-ization', by the way, as I believe such things could be one of the main factors why so many people in my country have such a pathetic understanding of the whole movement. If you say you support feminism - being a rational kind or not - in one of the local internet communities here, people will treat you like you said you supported ISIS.

 

[Servus Venandi]

I think it is mainly because it wasn't my intention to define sexism in a general context (e.g. from the feminist perspective) but only such aspects of it that I believe manifested in the video games. It's similar to how saying that the romance option with Iron Bull in DA:I contains elements of BDSM doesn't mean we can define BDSM by playing that game alone.

I do agree with how you feel about the 'Ghostbuster-ization', by the way, as I believe such things could be one of the main factors why so many people in my country have such a pathetic understanding of the whole movement. If you say you support feminism - being a rational kind or not - in one of the local internet communities here, people will treat you like you said you supported ISIS.

I don't have an academic background in philosophy, but I've armchaired it enough to become a stickler for definitions. It's nigh impossible to work through issues without them.

Historically, and perhaps unfortunately, sociopolitical movements are almost always co-opted sooner or later. Sometimes it's for the better. Usually it's worse, and the old guard stands around wondering what the hell went wrong.

 

[fallenmystic]

I don't have an academic background in philosophy, but I've armchaired it enough to become a stickler for definitions. It's nigh impossible to work through issues without them.

Historically, and perhaps unfortunately, sociopolitical movements are almost always co-opted sooner or later. Sometimes it's for the better. Usually it's worse, and the old guard stands around wondering what the hell went wrong.

I can say that I share a similar background as yours, although my armcharing experience is mostly limited to older philosophers like Plato or Loke. But I don't find that my usage of the word 'sexism' in this thread has hampered my arguments too much As far as I see it, t's quite a commonly referred problem in the context of video games. Even Wikipedia mentions this in its article about "Sexism and video games" as this:

This may manifest as sexual harassment or in the way genders are represented in games, such as when characters are presented according to gender-related tropes and stereotypes.

Of course, you don't have to agree with that article, or my view, for that matter. But as I believe you have already understood what I was trying to say in my previous posts, I don't think it's necessary to continue discussing about the exact definition of the term 'sexism' here.

I still welcome occasional discussions regarding how video games deal with sex and sexuality here, as those assets I'm making are intended to be used in a lewd video game after all. But maybe it's better if I go back to posting screenshots again instead of arguing over abstract concepts

 

[Servus Venandi]

...
Of course, you don't have to agree with that article, or my view, for that matter. But as I believe you have already understood what I was trying to say in my previous posts, I don't think it's necessary to continue discussing about the exact definition of the term 'sexism' here.

I understand what you meant critically, and I mostly agree that over-sexualizing characters can be a detriment to realism and immersion. I just don't think it's sexism.

I still welcome occasional discussions regarding how video games deal with sex and sexuality here, as those assets I'm making are intended to be used in a lewd video game after all. But maybe it's better if I go back to posting screenshots again instead of arguing over abstract concepts

Fair enough, and thanks for the discussion.

 

[fallenmystic]

And to steer the thread back to the topic again, here are a few shots of the new overseer pants asset that I just made. Probably, I'll spend sometime to improve the wrinkles later, but the difficult parts are mostly done:



As always, it's just a test render so please ignore the utterly unrealistic way the joints bend (better figure out how to use the twist bones and the muscle system properly) or rather boring skin texture

 

[Eulalia]

Finally they can get some food and rest, but it doesn't mean they are now free from degradation:

I'm late discovering these, fallenmystic, but delighted that I have found them -
they give a very vivid feel for the slavegirls reduced to underground animals.

 

[fallenmystic]

I'm late discovering these, fallenmystic, but delighted that I have found them -
they give a very vivid feel for the slavegirls reduced to underground animals.

I'm really glad that you felt that way because that was what exactly I tried to convey I'm trying to express my own fantasy world in different formats: stories, 3D renders, and a video game. They all share the same settings and the theme that make girls get enslaved and treated as animals (even legally).

Thanks much for sharing how you felt about my work!

 

[fallenmystic]

Another attempt at defining Siss character. According to my story, she cannot be an attractive girl, as all 'D-grade' slaves are deemed unfit for sexual service because of their 'defects' in appearances or ethnic traits. So, it's intentional that she doesn't look too beautiful or even feminine - the overseers call them as 'monkeys' or 'chimps' and don't even bother to rape them as they have better grade girls sold for such a purpose at home.

Barbara, of course, will be a very attractive girl, in comparison, and she won't be as anorexic as Siss since it's just been a month that she worked in the mine with Siss, feeding on food wastes.

I'm not sure if I will be able to pull off making a bald girl beautiful enough to give contrast, though. But such questions are why I'm doing these test renders to see if a setting would work or not

 

[fallenmystic]

Another test render with a bit more skin details and long hairs. I'm not really happy with the result, so probably I'll keep tweaking Siss. But at least I think the pants looks quite nice. Maybe I should try making a shirt and boots first.

 

[fallenmystic]

Another test render with the new Siss model in a bit more realistic light setting:


(I know the SSS values are way off that she's basically glowing red.)

And the overseer will soon get his new boots, so he won't have to walk around barefoot anymore



Probably I should spend more time in writing my story when I'm done with the boots model as it's been quite a while since I posted the last chapter.

 

[fallenmystic]

Now I finished the boots model. I made another test render to test different lighting setup and to see how the new model would look like in a scene:



Maybe I should try fluorescent lights with darker background too, as I think it's a bit too strongly tinted. I suppose I'll make the overseer shirt or a whip next time.

 

[fallenmystic]

I have spent some time today to study how to light my scene more realistically. And after some tweaking, I think now I found a setting that I feel more or less happy about.

I'll need to a lot more work before I can make production renders (e.g. creating more assets, fixing all material/model errours, and more) but I think I'm done with the lighting setup for now.

 

[fallenmystic]

I decided to give my slaves new fashion items before I could move on to create a whip, so I remade the iron collar with a padlock and chains. The previous model was one that I made when I was much less skillful with Blender (not that I'm good now but still...), and it looked unrealistic because it didn't make sense how it would work in real life. It had a hinge but no obvious locking mechanism.

Unlike the old model, however, the new collar consists of two semi-circular iron parts without a hinge. It's a permanent collar so that it'd be hammered shut around a slave's neck with rivets. And it has two handles welded to its body so that chains could be attached with a padlock my the slave's owner:



One great thing about this model is that I can create wrist and ankle shackles with a minor edit, so my next render will probably show them in action. But for now, I can only show you how it looks like in my previous scene for now:



By the way, I'm also working on my previous assets as well as they are all in an unfinished state. So, please understand that I won't create too many scenes before I'm relatively happy with those assets. I can't spend much time in creating new scenes until they are done, and I also need a point of reference when I'm tweaking things like lighting or material which is much easier when you can compare different versions of an asset in the otherwise identical scenes.

Anyway, I'm really happy with where the project is going, and I've been enjoying it as well as learning a lot about how to create 3d models. I hope I would be able to start producing real scenes instead of test renders by the time I finish my on going story, so I could use them as illustrations for my e-book (I know how to make them, so I'd be safe even if Madiosi refuses to touch such an amateurish story as mine ).

 

[fallenmystic]

I accidentally deleted my Sis character preset, so I'm stuck with this ugly test model for now. But I think I'm getting the hang of creating Blender materials, and I also made a female genitalia model last night. I still need to find a way to create proper pubic hairs before I can render it properly though.