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Odds And Ends And Anything You Fancy

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Kav said:
How many girls would trade places?
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Kav, since you are in Luxembourg, I can understand you thinking that your last two posts are just a typical contribution to the bdsm nature of this site. You may not understand its more serious association.

The scene you depict (from a film about the antebellum South) has very strong emotonal ties for many Americans. It is, in fact offensive. I would respectfully ask that you remove it.
 
poem21045 said:
Kav, since you are in Luxembourg, I can understand you thinking that your last two posts are just a typical contribution to the bdsm nature of this site. You may not understand its more serious association.

The scene you depict (from a film about the antebellum South) has very strong emotonal ties for many Americans. It is, in fact offensive. I would respectfully ask that you remove it.
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If you find "12 Years a Slave " offensive then write to the producers of the highly successful film, don't pick an argument with members of this forum.
 
melissa said:
If you find "12 Years a Slave " offensive then write to the producers of the highly successful film, don't pick an argument with members of this forum.
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Melissa--

Allow me to explain. I am not picking an argument, but rather making a polite request of Kav and hoping to enlighten him to a point of view that many members, I believe, would agree with.

I do not find 12 Years a Slave offensive in the least. The film was wonderful. I saw it in the theater. I have worked all my life in civil rights causes. But it was a film. The context here is totally different. The images we all view in this forum are meant to titillate, not serve as social history. Taking that image out of the context of the film glorifies a shameful historical reality. It is the exact opposite emotional context of the film.

I would feel the same way about members showing Jews being gassed, or Armenians being slaughtered, or New Yorkers burning to death in the Twin Towers on 9/11. So why am I not offended by Roman crucifixion? It is removed, distant from our recent reality. I know people whose ancestors were slaves, I know people whose relatives were in the Nazi concentration camps, I had a friend die in the Twin Towers. There are few records, even, of ancient crucifixions. It is a distant, remote torture. And therefore can be objectified.

Whipping a black slave in the antebellum South cannot be viewed objectively by an American. Perhaps Kav can because he has that same remote disassociation that I have for crucifixion. Good for him. But I want him to know what I think. I would like to hear from him, also, about this. If you feel this is "picking an argument," OK. Let me know. I won't say another word. But I am under the impression that free exchange of ideas is part of this forum. I hope that's still true.
 
poem21045 said:
Melissa--

Allow me to explain. I am not picking an argument, but rather making a polite request of Kav and hoping to enlighten him to a point of view that many members, I believe, would agree with.

I do not find 12 Years a Slave offensive in the least. The film was wonderful. I saw it in the theater. I have worked all my life in civil rights causes. But it was a film. The context here is totally different. The images we all view in this forum are meant to titillate, not serve as social history. Taking that image out of the context of the film glorifies a shameful historical reality. It is the exact opposite emotional context of the film.

I would feel the same way about members showing Jews being gassed, or Armenians being slaughtered, or New Yorkers burning to death in the Twin Towers on 9/11. So why am I not offended by Roman crucifixion? It is removed, distant from our recent reality. I know people whose ancestors were slaves, I know people whose relatives were in the Nazi concentration camps, I had a friend die in the Twin Towers. There are few records, even, of ancient crucifixions. It is a distant, remote torture. And therefore can be objectified.

Whipping a black slave in the antebellum South cannot be viewed objectively by an American. Perhaps Kav can because he has that same remote disassociation that I have for crucifixion. Good for him. But I want him to know what I think. I would like to hear from him, also, about this. If you feel this is "picking an argument," OK. Let me know. I won't say another word. But I am under the impression that free exchange of ideas is part of this forum. I hope that's still true.
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If you had asked for the movie clips to be moved I could understand that but you didn't. You asked for them to be removed as you found them offensive and could not be viewed objectively by an American. Strange then how it was a box office success. Perhaps many Americans are not as sensitive as you would have us believe. However, to keep the peace in this town I've moved the clips to the Whip It thread (page 139) where they may feel more at home.
 
melissa said:
If you had asked for the movie clips to be moved I could understand that but you didn't. You asked for them to be removed as you found them offensive and could not be viewed objectively by an American. Strange then how it was a box office success. Perhaps many Americans are not as sensitive as you would have us believe. However, to keep the peace in this town I've moved the clips to the Whip It thread (page 139) where they may feel more at home.
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Thank you.
 
poem21045 said:
I would feel the same way about members showing Jews being gassed, or Armenians being slaughtered, or New Yorkers burning to death in the Twin Towers on 9/11. So why am I not offended by Roman crucifixion? It is removed, distant from our recent reality. I know people whose ancestors were slaves, I know people whose relatives were in the Nazi concentration camps, I had a friend die in the Twin Towers. There are few records, even, of ancient crucifixions. It is a distant, remote torture. And therefore can be objectified.

Whipping a black slave in the antebellum South cannot be viewed objectively by an American. Perhaps Kav can because he has that same remote disassociation that I have for crucifixion. Good for him. But I want him to know what I think. I would like to hear from him, also, about this. If you feel this is "picking an argument," OK. Let me know. I won't say another word. But I am under the impression that free exchange of ideas is part of this forum. I hope that's still true.
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Poem21045, I can see where you are coming from, and I do understand and respect your opinion on this matter. So, I won't try to argue that you were wrong, but I'd like to persuade you to see it differently, as a member of this community who loves some of the fantasy themes you mentioned as being offensive.

As a non-American, I often find many of the stories or artworks found on this website to be 'offensive', or at least disrespectful, if I apply the same standard as yours when it comes to judging D/s fantasies by their moral standpoints.

You may have already noticed, but we have tons of such works in which Arabs, Vietnamese, Iranians, North Koreans are depicted as stereotypical villains who torment an innocent white girl. And as a person who has a casual interest in history, I know better than believing these people were evil and uncivilized to have fought the American or European people.

While I have little sympathy for religious fundamentalism, I understand why Iranians or Arabs have such strong anti-Western sentiments, knowing things like Sykes-Picot agreement, or the Iranian coup in 1953, for example.

The Vietnam War is a much more recent event than the American Civil War, and it was the U.S. who tried to oppose the people who wanted to unify their country and to start a war which resulted in millions of civilian death. But we don't have any problem with posting or "liking" such artwork in which evil-looking Vietcongs torture a female American soldier on this website.

I don't know how many Arab or Muslim members we have in this community, but I'm sure that our doors are as open for them as for any European or American person. But what would they think if they see that their people are almost always depicted as cardboard villains in fantasy works we create and like here?

I've spent some time to think about this issue because I'm much into racial slavery theme myself, which I know to be quite a sensitive issue as you proved it. The conclusion I reached is that we better not bring moral or historical judgements to our fantasies, provided that we know that things like slavery are wrong when enacted in real life.

Maybe some of those work reflect real-life prejudices against Arabs or Muslims, but we can never be sure unless we ask the author and start a political argument. But at least, I'm certain that the majority of our members know better than supporting real-life slavery or abuse of women, so I can assume the same when it comes to those stories or artworks that deal with historically sensitive materials.

I agree with you that there would be many Americans who may find such a theme like racial slavery quite offensive because of its relevance to recent discriminatory experiences they may have.

But if we are to apply that standard to censure our contents, I suppose we may as well close down this website altogether since there are so many rape victims out there and the vast majority of the content we have in this community depict sexual torment of women as a form of mere entertainment.

So, if we can understand that rape in real life is a horrible thing but can enjoy a fantasy depiction of such an event nonetheless, I suppose we can do the same with racial slavery or other similar potentially sensitive subjects.
 
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fallenmystic said:
Poem21045, I can see where you are coming from, and I do understand and respect your opinion on this matter. So, I won't try to argue that you were wrong, but I'd like to persuade you to see it differently, as a member of this community who loves some of the fantasy themes you mentioned as being offensive.

As a non-American, I often find many of the stories or artworks found on this website to be 'offensive', or at least disrespectful, if I apply the same standard as yours when it comes to judging D/s fantasies by their moral standpoints.

You may have already noticed, but we have tons of such works in which Arabs, Vietnamese, Iranians, North Koreans are depicted as stereotypical villains who torment an innocent white girl. And as a person who has a casual interest in history, I know better than believing these people were evil and uncivilized to have fought the American or European people.

While I have little sympathy for religious fundamentalism, I understand why Iranians or Arabs have such strong anti-Western sentiments, knowing things like Sykes-Picot agreement, or the Iranian coup in 1953, for example.

The Vietnam War is a much more recent event than the American Civil War, and it was the U.S. who tried to oppose the people who wanted to unify their country and to start a war which resulted in millions of civilian death. But we don't have any problem with posting or "liking" such artwork in which evil-looking Vietcongs torture a female American soldier on this website.

I don't know how many Arab or Muslim members we have in this community, but I'm sure that our doors are as open for them as for any European or American person. But what would they think if they see that their people are almost always depicted as cardboard villains in fantasy works we create and like here?

I've spent some time to think about this issue because I'm much into racial slavery theme myself, which I know to be quite a sensitive issue as you proved it. The conclusion I reached is that we better not bring moral or historical judgements to our fantasies, provided that we know that things like slavery are wrong when enacted in real life.

Maybe some of those work reflect real-life prejudices against Arabs or Muslims, but we can never be sure unless we ask the author and start a political argument. But at least, I'm certain that the majority of our members know better than supporting real-life slavery or abuse of women, so I can assume the same when it comes to those stories or artworks that deal with historically sensitive materials.

I agree with you that there would be many Americans who may find such a theme like racial slavery quite offensive because of its relevance to recent discriminatory experiences they may have.

But if we are to apply that standard to censure our contents, I suppose we may as well close down this website altogether since there are so many rape victims out there and the vast majority of the content we have in this community depict sexual torment of women as a form of mere entertainment.

So, if we can understand that rape in real life is a horrible thing but can enjoy a fantasy depiction of such an event nonetheless, I suppose we can do the same with racial slavery or other similar potentially sensitive subjects.
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fallenmystic--

Thank you very much for your thoughtful comments and open discussion. It's nice to know some folks take me seriously.

I could write quite a bit about this subject, but in reading your ideas and thinking about mine, I think I've come to a (perhaps simplistic) resolve: this issue, for me, boils down to partly what I said earlier and partly what you have said.

We are all individuals (from various areas of the world) and we have different sensibilities. Some are more sensitive to a given image than others. If you and Kav enjoy seeing African American women being whipped, I will not again express my displeasure. We're all entitled to our own fantasies and fetishes, especially here. What I think generates a feeling of offense for me and perhaps some others is our own inability to objectify some images. We here in the CruxForums are (perhaps sadly) people who objectify suffering for our sadistic pleasure. (I am not making a moral judgment on that; just stating a fact.) I can look at a Makar video, knowing that the girl in the vid is not really suffering, but is actually being paid to emote as if she were. I can also not really even think of her as a person; I objectify her as an thing to provide me pleasure. We ALL here do this, probably for various reasons and motives deep-set in our psyches. If the image were a friend of mine or a relative, I am sure I would not be able to have the same reaction. As I said before, we need a remoteness, a distance from the subject, to objectify that subject. I can do that with Makar's Russian girls, etc. I just can't do it with whipped African American women.

My simple solution for myself will be to "ignore" any members whose main contributions I dislike.

Again, thanks for your thoughts. They have helped me sort through my own!
 
poem21045 said:
If you and Kav enjoy seeing African American women being whipped, I will not again express my displeasure... My simple solution for myself will be to "ignore" any members whose main contributions I dislike.
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Thanks for taking my comment in a constructive manner! :)

And I agree with you that it's best to just ignore those contents we find to be offensive to our individual sensibilities. I just want you to know that I (and probably most of others here on CF who like similar themes as well) am very strongly opposed to any real life racial discrimination and have been often voicing my opinions when needed. So, while I enjoy fantasies based on racial slavery in this community, I will certainly raise my concern if I find such content which gives me a sufficient reason to suspect that it is based on real life prejudices against any ethnic group, and I'd enourage others to do the same.

As to your other point, I thiink it's a matter on which each might have one's own standard. In my case, if I had a female friend who features in a very degrading D/s movie, I would admire her courage and thank her for providing an opportunity to fantasize with her body. However, if she didn't intend to appear in any such content, but someone took her Instagram photo to make a degrading manip and share it online, for example, I would be angry with the act and will try not to use it to fuel my fantasy.

That is my personal standard when it comes to such an issue.
 
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fallenmystic said:
Thanks for taking my comment in a constructive manner! :)

And I agree with you that it's best to just ignore those contents we find to be offensive to our individual sensibilities. I just want you to know that I (and probably most of others here on CF who like similar themes) am very strongly opposed to any real life racial discrimination and have been often voicing my opinions when needed. So, while I enjoy fantasies based on racial slavery in this community, I will certainly raise my concern if I find such content which gives me a sufficient reason to suspect that it is based on real life prejudices against any ethnic group, and I'd enourage others to do the same.
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Bravo!
 
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