Owning slaves. Boundaries, contracts and agreements: a question for Dominants and submissives.

[owned jade]

Responding to a question about the selling of slaves got me thinking. Not so much about the selling but about the owning.

Dominants: what type of relationship would you prefer to have with your submissive? What are things you would demand in a relationship? What would definitely need to be in the agreement? What would be dealbreakers when refused – what is the minimum you would expect in other words?

Submissives: what type of relationship would you prefer to have with your Dominant? What are things you would expect in a relationship? What would definitely need to be in the agreement? What would be dealbreakers when demanded – what are your limits in other words?

Let me explain what I mean a little further:
No matter the type of the BDSM-relationship you may have it’s also just still a relationship. I love my Mistress and she loves me. We do the same things most other couples do. It’s just that we undoubtedly have way more sex than average, our sex life is considerably more kinky than average and a lot more people are involved in our sex life than average. We still celebrate the same type of milestones and binge series together like everyone else. Just in our case I might be naked and in bondage with a dildo or a plug up my pussy or ass while binging.

Our relationship is TPE. So theoretically there aren’t supposed to be any rules. In reality of course there always are. Mistress is bound to take care of me and to guard over my safety and physical and mental well being. I am bound to serve her faithfully and loyally to the best of my ability and to obey her commands immediately and without question.

We have an agreement covering all of our relationship. It’s quite detailed. The detail is for her protection. So that it can be proven I wanted all this in case something ever goes wrong during a session. It details tortures and instruments that can be used, toys, clothing, sexual use, sexual autonomy, my right to orgasm or absence of that right, safe words, etc. It even lists a number of body mods including surgical ones I have already consented to so Mistress can have them done without warning or asking. Mods nit listed I need to agree to. It only lists 4 taboos: pee, scat, vomit and insects.
This is necessary if you want a working relationship between Dominant and submissive. A Dominant has to accept and want responsibility over their slave and the slave hast to freely and totally submit. There are no other forces or obligations in play after all legal or otherwise.

If all this left you with burning questions for me about details concerning my relationship with my Mistress feel free to ask but please do answer my question. I'm curious.

 

[TheLimey]

You've certainly hit the nail on the head with this.
Let me think on this a while....

 

[Dafmads]

Thank you for this topic- it is absolutely needful to think about.

In only experienced part-time relationships (weekend p. ex.), but ever craved to have a full-time D/S connection.
A DS- and for me a SM- relation develops with the time. I learned to know my partner, my sub and limits moved and changed with time. We needed to talk a lot – but writíng down has never been necessary. I knew soon where her limits are, respected them and only pushed them with her agreement.
I use the past-form, because the last real life connection happened some time ago.

There has always been an „everyday“ role, in which I liked to be on eye-level with her, for going out to dinner, opera etc.
When we get into „role“, into „play“, I expect submission and obedience (what is of course part of the „deal“), but also playfulness and readiness for new things to try out. On the other hand, pure allegiance is boring with the time: I need to be challenged and to „invited“.
A dealbreaker would be repeated serious refusal to keep her role. As well as ignoring my limits – but that is mutual.
The minimum ist to let me know her dreams, needs and wishes (yes, I want to fulfill her cravings as well as mine) and to come along with my sort of dominance and to stand (better to enjoy) my sadism.

I regard the mentioned agreement from another, a different angle:
You use the written agreement as a contract between you and your mistress.
An other aspect is to use a written agreement as proof of consent towards third parties:

I once discussed a 24/7 tpe relation with a slavegirl – it never came to action, she backed out. Maybe it was just a brainfuck for her. While I admit, I enjoyed the preparation-time too.

We discussed a serious and intensive slavekeeping for several weeks. She would be chained, abused, whipped, trained and in different ways tortured during this time. After an introduction-week even her safe-word should become void (what I was uncomfortable with).
My intention about a contract was to avoid judical prosecution, in case anything happens, which would include external persons. Maybe health problems of her or me, with the need a doctor's help. Or think of me waking up in a hospital after a traffic accident, while she is chained in the basement, traces of punishment on her body.
Such a contract must contain our both explicit agreement and must be signed with a notary – to be of any help at court – where such a situation would lead to.
Finding an understanding notary would be one of the challenges.

As I mentioned, it was never implemented, but discussing and planning was exciting though.

 

[ks9999]

I used to have lots and lots of rules but over the years I realized that far to often they limited the dynamic, prevented the relationship from growing and culminating into all it could potentially be. Ironically enough, I often found that the rules hindered me.
Now, a little bit older, a little bit more experienced, I little bit wiser, I've stripped things down to 3 simple things.
I'm a simple boy. I like simple things And the truth is always simple.

Her role in my life is to;
Serve
Please
Obey.

That's it .Pretty much everything in life falls under those categories.
All I ask of her is everything

In return I try to remember that I always need to do 3 things as well:
Be firm but fair
Be consistent(This so critical)
Never fail to reward or acknowledge good behavior

 

[owned jade]

Thank you for this topic- it is absolutely needful to think about.

In only experienced part-time relationships (weekend p. ex.), but ever craved to have a full-time D/S connection.
A DS- and for me a SM- relation develops with the time. I learned to know my partner, my sub and limits moved and changed with time. We needed to talk a lot – but writíng down has never been necessary. I knew soon where her limits are, respected them and only pushed them with her agreement.
I use the past-form, because the last real life connection happened some time ago.

There has always been an „everyday“ role, in which I liked to be on eye-level with her, for going out to dinner, opera etc.
When we get into „role“, into „play“, I expect submission and obedience (what is of course part of the „deal“), but also playfulness and readiness for new things to try out. On the other hand, pure allegiance is boring with the time: I need to be challenged and to „invited“.
A dealbreaker would be repeated serious refusal to keep her role. As well as ignoring my limits – but that is mutual.
The minimum ist to let me know her dreams, needs and wishes (yes, I want to fulfill her cravings as well as mine) and to come along with my sort of dominance and to stand (better to enjoy) my sadism.

I regard the mentioned agreement from another, a different angle:
You use the written agreement as a contract between you and your mistress.
An other aspect is to use a written agreement as proof of consent towards third parties:

I once discussed a 24/7 tpe relation with a slavegirl – it never came to action, she backed out. Maybe it was just a brainfuck for her. While I admit, I enjoyed the preparation-time too.

We discussed a serious and intensive slavekeeping for several weeks. She would be chained, abused, whipped, trained and in different ways tortured during this time. After an introduction-week even her safe-word should become void (what I was uncomfortable with).
My intention about a contract was to avoid judical prosecution, in case anything happens, which would include external persons. Maybe health problems of her or me, with the need a doctor's help. Or think of me waking up in a hospital after a traffic accident, while she is chained in the basement, traces of punishment on her body.
Such a contract must contain our both explicit agreement and must be signed with a notary – to be of any help at court – where such a situation would lead to.
Finding an understanding notary would be one of the challenges.

As I mentioned, it was never implemented, but discussing and planning was exciting though.

Yes as I mentioned the written agreement is mostly there for her protection if something were to go very wrong. It's meant to prove I'm in it willingly.
Taking it to a notary isn't necessary according to our info. Or at least not where we are.
It just has to be provable it's real. So it's signed and initialed on every page and there's an added message in my handwriting at the end of it. We also have recordings of me and Mistress talking about and explaining our relationship, going over the extreme aspects in detail. We also have clips of hard sessions with the aftermath. Mistress providing care while I discuss how I feel, any orgasms I had etc.
It shouldn't be a problem.
She also never leaves me in such a way I couldn't get free if I needed to. I would never do that unless it was absolutely necessary but I could get free. That could really be dangerous otherwise.
The fact that we have all that makes me way more at ease and able to commit fully and without a second thought. Otherwise I agree it's not really needed. Mistress knows my boundaries and I trust her completely. I know she will respect them. I have a safe word and signal but I've never had to use them. Not even when Mistress was doing her very best to expand my limits and push against those boundaries. Which is fine by the way. I want her to, I want to become what she wants me to be.
And yes I completely agree. Discussing all that is insanely erotic and arousing.

 

[owned jade]

I used to have lots and lots of rules but over the years I realized that far to often they limited the dynamic, prevented the relationship from growing and culminating into all it could potentially be. Ironically enough, I often found that the rules hindered me.
Now, a little bit older, a little bit more experienced, I little bit wiser, I've stripped things down to 3 simple things.
I'm a simple boy. I like simple things And the truth is always simple.

Her role in my life is to;
Serve
Please
Obey.

That's it .Pretty much everything in life falls under those categories.
All I ask of her is everything

In return I try to remember that I always need to do 3 things as well:
Be firm but fair
Be consistent(This so critical)
Never fail to reward or acknowledge good behavior

I mostly agree. I want to get as close to TPE as possible after all.
However there are always rules. Hard no's if you will. Those need to be respected even if as in my case there are almost none anyway.
Other than that any "rule" or "agreement" is meant to protect Mistress if something goes wrong. It's not meant to restrict her in any way really. I want her to push my boundaries and expand my limits. There are also very few things off limits so that helps.
Other than that I totally trust Mistress. I've often been in positions that might be considered uncomfortable at first that I ended up embracing later.
Like the first time she took me out in public (on holiday and nowhere near where we live) on a leash and dressed like a total slut, everyone watching and staring. I can't say I felt at ease but it also made me amazingly wet. Or the first time I was offered to others for sex, had sex in public, was told to masturbate in front of people.
Of course it starts way more careful doesn't it. Told to hand over your knickers while at a restaurant while not being allowed to leave the table to do it. Told to flash your tits or pussy while out. Not wearing underwear under regular if sexy clothes and eventually told to not wear underwear ever again unless specifically instructed. Being plugged all the time. Just one step at a time.
In our case there are even permanent bodymods she could have done without asking me. I've already consented to them in our agreement.
Generally our agreement makes me feel more free to totally submit. As you say to serve, please and obey without question or doubt.
I would say there's two more things you need to do as a Dominant that you haven't mentioned though. It's very self evident which is probably why they're not mentioned but because they're the most important ones in my view they kind of need to be.
You need to keep her safe.
You need to guard, maintain and protect her physical and mental well being.

 

[TheLimey]

There's a wealth of good info there @owned jade.

My wife and I are ENM, and we attend both lifestyle parties (what used to be called Swinging), and Fetish events.

There's a worrying trend in the lifestyle side of things, particularly around South Florida, with a lack of consent, and that leads as well to a lack of knowledge of how a Dominant should behave, (if that's the right way of putting it).

 

[owned jade]

There's a wealth of good info there @owned jade.

My wife and I are ENM, and we attend both lifestyle parties (what used to be called Swinging), and Fetish events.

There's a worrying trend in the lifestyle side of things, particularly around South Florida, with a lack of consent, and that leads as well to a lack of knowledge of how a Dominant should behave, (if that's the right way of putting it).

I agree. There are codes of conduct and there are definitely Dominants not worthy of that name.
That's kind of the funny side to bdsm isn't it. The sub kind of has most of the power. The sub decides how far they want to go.
Within those boundaries it's so totally freeing to completely submit.
Nothing wrong with cnc of course. I thoroughly enjoy it, but the first c isn't a detail.
I'm still curious:
If your wife was your sub or if you owned me for example what type of relationship would you prefer to have with your submissive? What are things you would demand in a relationship? What would definitely need to be in the agreement? What would be deal breakers when refused – what is the minimum you would expect in other words?
Thank you for responding Sir

 

[TheLimey]

I agree. There are codes of conduct and there are definitely Dominants not worthy of that name.
That's kind of the funny side to bdsm isn't it. The sub kind of has most of the power. The sub decides how far they want to go.

Yes. I spent some time explaining the whole BDSM idea to a couple of friends, and they were very thrown by the idea that ultimately, the sub has most of the control.

I'm still curious:
If your wife was your sub or if you owned me for example what type of relationship would you prefer to have with your submissive? What are things you would demand in a relationship? What would definitely need to be in the agreement? What would be deal breakers when refused – what is the minimum you would expect in other words?

So, I've had a couple of relationships where BDSM was involved, including with my wife.

In both, we've had some form of agreement on what would be included and what would not. We've never gone fully 24/7, but have had play sessions that have stretched over the period of days, and which have involved periods of total obedience. These have ranged from things you described such as grades of public nudity, including the progressive removal of clothing and addition of restraints whilst walking home, through to such things as adoption of certain positions when I enter the room

Ultimately, I feel that what should not be included, (the hard no's), is more important in an agreement. For instance, my partner does not like Electro play these days, whereas I have a keen interest in such and have a violet wand kit that I regularly take to fetish parties.

This is one reason why we are going further into ENM, as it's a framework to allow play with others outside of our main relationship. This in itself has a whole section of rules and boundaries, and should have, even if you go with relationship anarchy.

Thank you for responding Sir

You are welcome.

 

[ks9999]

I mostly agree. I want to get as close to TPE as possible after all.
However there are always rules. Hard no's if you will. Those need to be respected even if as in my case there are almost none anyway.
Other than that any "rule" or "agreement" is meant to protect Mistress if something goes wrong. It's not meant to restrict her in any way really. I want her to push my boundaries and expand my limits. There are also very few things off limits so that helps.
Other than that I totally trust Mistress. I've often been in positions that might be considered uncomfortable at first that I ended up embracing later.
Like the first time she took me out in public (on holiday and nowhere near where we live) on a leash and dressed like a total slut, everyone watching and staring. I can't say I felt at ease but it also made me amazingly wet. Or the first time I was offered to others for sex, had sex in public, was told to masturbate in front of people.
Of course it starts way more careful doesn't it. Told to hand over your knickers while at a restaurant while not being allowed to leave the table to do it. Told to flash your tits or pussy while out. Not wearing underwear under regular if sexy clothes and eventually told to not wear underwear ever again unless specifically instructed. Being plugged all the time. Just one step at a time.
In our case there are even permanent bodymods she could have done without asking me. I've already consented to them in our agreement.
Generally our agreement makes me feel more free to totally submit. As you say to serve, please and obey without question or doubt.
I would say there's two more things you need to do as a Dominant that you haven't mentioned though. It's very self evident which is probably why they're not mentioned but because they're the most important ones in my view they kind of need to be.
You need to keep her safe.
You need to guard, maintain and protect her physical and mental well being.

Yeah, I always start careful and then slowly escalate. You never know when you're going to run across a tripwire in someones head.,Hell, sometimes they don't know it's there until you hit it, which makes for one damn awkward scene, just takes all the fun right out of play.
I also try to be very cognizant of the boundaries of others. Simply because I find something acceptable doesn't mean the world agrees. As such, I'm very leery of PDA's and public acts.
As you've so wonderfully noted above, the entire dynamic has to be rooted in trust.
This is soooooooo critical and so often overlooked.
She has to trust me and that means I have to trust myself. It also means I have to be worthy of that trust, to have earned it in the past and to continuously earn it on a day by day basis. That when she tests me and that trust I don't get angry but understand, because after all, all I'm asking of her is everything. Shouldn't I be giving that back in return as well?
This is something so many people miss, but it's the very heart of any bound relationship, ,most especially TPE and CNC.

But that's just MHO and all. I could be completely barking mad and howling at the moon too.
I always allow for that possibility cuz it might just be right

 

[TheLimey]

Yeah, I always start careful and then slowly escalate. You never know when you're going to run across a tripwire in someones head.,Hell, sometimes they don't know it's there until you hit it, which makes for one damn awkward scene, just takes all the fun right out of play.
I also try to be very cognizant of the boundaries of others. Simply because I find something acceptable doesn't mean the world agrees. As such, I'm very leery of PDA's and public acts.
As you've so wonderfully noted above, the entire dynamic has to be rooted in trust.
This is soooooooo critical and so often overlooked.
She has to trust me and that means I have to trust myself. It also means I have to be worthy of that trust, to have earned it in the past and to continuously earn it on a day by day basis. That when she tests me and that trust I don't get angry but understand, because after all, all I'm asking of her is everything. Shouldn't I be giving that back in return as well?
This is something so many people miss, but it's the very heart of any bound relationship, ,most especially TPE and CNC.

But that's just MHO and all. I could be completely barking mad and howling at the moon too.
I always allow for that possibility cuz it might just be right

Nope, you are not barking mad.

Trust is key in a D/s relationship, in much the same way as ENM, and a big part of that is communication.

Honestly, the more you go down the rabbit holes of what a lot of people consider perverted or sinful, the more you have to learn the communication tools that should be part of any relationship, be it as vanilla as it can be.

 

[ks9999]

Nope, you are not barking mad.

Trust is key in a D/s relationship, in much the same way as ENM, and a big part of that is communication.

Honestly, the more you go down the rabbit holes of what a lot of people consider perverted or sinful, the more you have to learn the communication tools that should be part of any relationship, be it as vanilla as it can be.

I'm being more than a smidgen tongue in cheek with the barking mad comment.,
I've had way too many run-in's with forum admins and site administrators in the past-it's left me a bit gunshy.
The interwebzzzz is not the wild wide open place it once was. Damn place has gotten civilized, constrained. The encroachment of the corporate powers that be is a trend I find very troubling. Things like Consent Non-Consent can't be discussed as well as many aspects of a firm traditional TPE. Which IMHO is a damn shame; the further out on the edge an act is, the more it needs to be put out in the open, if for nothing else for safeties sake, mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual. Take these things out of the fantasies of wankers and lay out real actual experience, the pros and cons, what works and what doesn't.
I spent a decade doing this on the collarme forums and I can't tell you how many people have told me that sharing our experiences were helpful and/or inspiring. That doesn't even count participation ion local groups, running dungeons, giving seminars, etc...
All of which was essentially passing on the knowledge that had been so freely given to me.
I didn't learn from books or the net. I was taught by slaves and subs and the occasional dom, and I'm forever grateful to those parties for their generosity, kindness, and patience in sharing.
And I'll never ever get tired of picking womens brains, finding out what makes them tick, so I cabn be a better Dominant, better partner, better Man.


Heck, I literally just got timed out for a year in a group on fetlfe called "cruel torture ideas and stories, only most severe, painful and insane suffering agony and abuse"

Somewhere somehow the powers that be that ran that group clearly missed the day irony was discussed in school.

People never fail to amaze me with their close-mindedness.
AFAIC, that's their loss.
Me, I listen with my eyes and I hope to continue to grow til the day I day.

Regards,
K

 

[Tina]

For me it all comes down to trust - of course, Mistress and I could have a detailed list of all the things she can and can't do to me, but to me, that would feel like we were lawyers. In the end, if I feel the need to put everything down on paper, maybe that other person isn't the right one. In my three slave relationships I ended up giving my owner all the power and just trusting her to do the right thing. I don't want to be asked about every new idea she has - I need her to know if I could take it. Or, if she doesn't know, to ease me into it so she can stop whenever it starts feeling wrong.

This has worked great for me, but of course, that's only me

 

[owned jade]

For me it all comes down to trust - of course, Mistress and I could have a detailed list of all the things she can and can't do to me, but to me, that would feel like we were lawyers. In the end, if I feel the need to put everything down on paper, maybe that other person isn't the right one. In my three slave relationships I ended up giving my owner all the power and just trusting her to do the right thing. I don't want to be asked about every new idea she has - I need her to know if I could take it. Or, if she doesn't know, to ease me into it so she can stop whenever it starts feeling wrong.

This has worked great for me, but of course, that's only me

Of course. It would be pretty stupid to let yourself be totally tied up by someone you don't trust.
I give Mistress all power and I totally trust her. I don't know things in advance and she certainly doesn't ask permission for any new ideas she may have.
It's just that we do some pretty extreme things and I want her to be totally safe if things were to go wrong. It gives me peace of mind knowing she's protected.
So the "agreement" is there for her protection not mine and trust me very few things are not allowed. It doesn't limit Mistress at all.