Reconstruction Of A Woman's Crucifixion

[bleater]

First of all, a reflection on what nudity meant to the ancient Romans, Greeks and the Romans did not possess the sense of the shame we have, this modesty is due to the Christianization which has taken it from the typical customs of the Semitic peoples.
The Romans were used to showing themselves naked to the baths, which were usually promiscuous, during sporting events (in the Greek way), or sometimes, in public events (the Emperor Commodo descended into the arena dressed as Hercules, so semi naked).
To show that a naked body, in certain situations, was a form of humiliation, nudity was interpreted as a vulnerability, which for a Roman was humiliating.
The slaves were exposed naked when they wanted to assert their inferiority, as well as prisoners.
For example it is almost certain that the gladiatrices (female gladiators) fought exposing their naked breasts copying the representations of Amazonomachia (the War of the Amazons), and probably were not slaves, since Emperor Tiberius issued a law forbidding women, who were relatives of senators, to go down into the arena, and yet they fought with the naked breasts as Giovenale tells us in the satirae.

So if the crucified women were more or less nude, it depended on the local people's feeling, in certain areas, exposing a naked woman, provoked a revolt, in others not.

Of curse, i will be crucified naked

 

[phlebas]

First of all, a reflection on what nudity meant to the ancient Romans, Greeks and the Romans did not possess the sense of the shame we have, this modesty is due to the Christianization which has taken it from the typical customs of the Semitic peoples.
The Romans were used to showing themselves naked to the baths, which were usually promiscuous, during sporting events (in the Greek way), or sometimes, in public events (the Emperor Commodo descended into the arena dressed as Hercules, so semi naked).
To show that a naked body, in certain situations, was a form of humiliation, nudity was interpreted as a vulnerability, which for a Roman was humiliating.
The slaves were exposed naked when they wanted to assert their inferiority, as well as prisoners.
For example it is almost certain that the gladiatrices (female gladiators) fought exposing their naked breasts copying the representations of Amazonomachia (the War of the Amazons), and probably were not slaves, since Emperor Tiberius issued a law forbidding women, who were relatives of senators, to go down into the arena, and yet they fought with the naked breasts as Giovenale tells us in the satirae.

So if the crucified women were more or less nude, it depended on the local people's feeling, in certain areas, exposing a naked woman, provoked a revolt, in others not.

Hi Bleater, actually it's not just down to Christianity, there is plenty of nudity and semi nudity visible in medieval illustrations

and in late medieval and Renaissance art. It's later generations that got a bit squeamish about public exposure

Of curse, i will be crucified naked

It's the proper way, so I'm very pleased to hear it [/QUOTE]

 

[bleater]

Hi Bleater, actually it's not just down to Christianity, there is plenty of nudity and semi nudity visible in medieval illustrations

Yes of course, in art for sure, and in middle age people cared less than now about being naked, but it just reported what historians and archaeologists say.

I was not there.

 

[thehangingtree]

Of curse, i will be crucified naked

Of course you will be...

 

[Wragg]

I was not there.

You really don't look old enough...

 

[bleater]

Of course you will be...

For now i did only cross walk

 

[phlebas]

For now i did only cross walk

It's a good start


Feel that wood on your bare flesh, that weight of wood that will soon support your own weight. Feel the eyes on you as you pass by, trying to hide your nakedness, helpless and alone . . . .

I was not there.

But you wish you were!

 

[bleater]

Feel that wood on your bare flesh, that weight of wood that will soon support your own weight. Feel the eyes on you as you pass by, trying to hide your nakedness, helpless and alone . . . .

and the whip and the cold, and sharp stuff under your bare feet

 

[thehangingtree]

and the whip and the cold, and sharp stuff under your bare feet

The line forms with people wanting to 'help' you with this...

 

[cruxlover]

I don't Adam and Eve it. (London slang)

 

[Marcius]

Yes, online... and I found it:

The female one begins about at 18:20

Anyway, I always searched for a better copy.

The English version of the History Channel documentary:

 

[AlexArts]

History Channel

99,99% males
0,01% females
I can admit it

 

[Frank Petrexa]

Yes, young Roman women were notorious for
parking their sporty chariots outside fancy clothes shops
ignoring STATIO INTERDICTA notices,
even driving the wrong way up VIÆ VNICÆ -
the authorities had to institute on-the-spot roadside cruxifixions.

Oh, horseshit!

Oops, I should stay in the spirit of the post. Forgive me.
Stercus equinus? It should be nominative?

 

[Marcius]

We know not exactly over the roman male-female crucification statistic.
I guess, the distribution is similar how the present distribution of male-female violations of laws.

Some numbers from the article on lingchi in China (the link posted here):

The sex ratio of the condemned people is highly unusual when compared with studies of other parts of the world, where most executions concern men, in an approximate proportion of 10 to 20 men for one woman. [NOTE: Women represent less than 10% of the executed in 18th century London, according to Gatrell (1994, p. 8) ; Richard Evans (1996), give similar rates for Germany, apart from bouts of repressive fury against witches, and later against infanticide mothers in the mid-18th century.] In Qing China, of 1140 persons condemned to lingchi, 210 were registered as women, 929 as men, and 59 were of unspecified gender ; this means that women represented 18.5% of the lingchi sentences. This is in itself a remarkable proportion for the harshest form of punishments. Moreover, the proportion of women increases sharply during the late 19th century : starting with 31.5% of women under Shunzhi, the ratio falls to 2.4% under Kangxi, and remains between 10 and 15% for the 18th and most of 19th century, with a striking, although erroneous, record showing no woman executed under Xianfeng and Tongzhi. Then comes the horrendous last thirty years, with 114 women out of 446 lingchi sentences, or 25.6%. Of course, this overrepresentation of women is a direct consequence of the prevalence of parricides over the other categories of lingchi sentences, and of the prevalence of the ‘viricides’ in the category of parricides. This double prevalence is overwhelming under Shunzhi and Guangxu, the first and the last reign of our period.

More thoughts on the subject from Tombs, D. (2017). Lived religion and the intolerance of the cross, p. 63 (n. 12). In R. R. Ganzevoort & S. Sremac (Eds.), Lived religion and the politics of (in)tolerance. Palgrave Macmillan.

There is debate on whether crucifixion was a punishment that was exclusively reserved for men, but there appear to be at least some reports of women being crucified. Josephus mentions the crucifixion of a freed woman in Rome (Ide), who collaborated with Priests of Isis to deceive a woman of the equestrian order (Paulina). Tiberius had Ide and the Priests crucified and the Temple of Isis destroyed; see Josephus, Antiquities 18.79–80. Josephus reports this immediately after his well-known passage on the life of Jesus, whom Pilate condemned to the cross and who gave his name to ‘the tribe of Christians’ (Josephus, Antiquities, 18.65–66). The common assumption that most victims of crucifixion were men is probably correct, though the absence of definitive records leaves room for some uncertainty. If women were also crucified, it is quite possible that the number of women who suffered in this way has been dramatically underestimated.

 

[Eulalia]

Oh, horseshit!

Oops, I should stay in the spirit of the post. Forgive me.
Stercus equinus? It should be nominative?

Interesting question - well, to geeks like me -
although there's plenty of rude Roman graffiti,
I don't think there's much consistency in the case used for swearing,
sometimes nominative, sometimes vocative, or ablative (by....!) -
For 'Oh, horseshit!' I think I'd say 'Eia! Faece equi!',

 

[Eulalia]

Some numbers from the article on lingchi in China (the link posted here):




More thoughts on the subject from Tombs, D. (2017). Lived religion and the intolerance of the cross, p. 63 (n. 12). In R. R. Ganzevoort & S. Sremac (Eds.), Lived religion and the politics of (in)tolerance. Palgrave Macmillan.

I think we have to face the fact that there always has been, and always will be,
an audience for women being tortured, even to death,
and some 'civilisations' at their lowest depths indulge that demand.

 

[patbeer]

Yes, online... and I found it:

The female one begins about at 18:20

Anyway, I always searched for a better copy.

Ok, very long time ago. Stil want to see the full and better copy. Says "private" on YouTube. Anyway I can access it? Thank you.

 

[dfg42]

Yes of course, in art for sure, and in middle age people cared less than now about being naked, but it just reported what historians and archaeologists say.

I was not there.

It is always the danger to interpret history with your own prejudices. That nudity could be shocking for Romans I conclude from nudity of Celts attacking the Romans, also it is known that romanised jews were ashamed of their circumcisions. We have in our society also the interesting fact that our internet is full of nudity, while public nudity, for example in sport is more restricted today than it was in my youth.

 

[patbeer]

It is always the danger to interpret history with your own prejudices. That nudity could be shocking for Romans I conclude from nudity of Celts attacking the Romans, also it is known that romanised jews were ashamed of their circumcisions. We have in our society also the interesting fact that our internet is full of nudity, while public nudity, for example in sport is more restricted today than it was in my youth.

I agree with the possible Jewish prudishness. On the other hand, slaves, female as well as male didn't wear too much clothes in those days?
And it is absolutely true that especially Americans (certainly in the Bible Belt) are more afraid of a bare nipple or bare breast than for example of some 100 shot down men. I am talking about movies and series now. Mainstream. Starting to annoy me. "Sex", in bed, but always with the bra on. I mean what is this about?
Sports not too sure. If I see the female athletes (high jump, track racing, beach volley ball, ...). In my youth you didn't get to see those pretty belly buttons. Or camel toes. ;-)

 

[dfg42]

I agree with the possible Jewish prudishness. On the other hand, slaves, female as well as male didn't wear too much clothes in those days?
And it is absolutely true that especially Americans (certainly in the Bible Belt) are more afraid of a bare nipple or bare breast than for example of some 100 shot down men. I am talking about movies and series now. Mainstream. Starting to annoy me. "Sex", in bed, but always with the bra on. I mean what is this about?
Sports not too sure. If I see the female athletes (high jump, track racing, beach volley ball, ...). In my youth you didn't get to see those pretty belly buttons. Or camel toes. ;-)

Bible Belt I do not know. In Europe after the 70is it was usual that females showed their breasts in swimming pool and men were undressing in public, so I was thinking of a trend that nudity became natural. This was reversed. In sports we have 2 examples: The male nudes in YMCA pools and the nude undressing in triathlons, both be reversed. According to what my father told me, male nudity in public was quite natural in his time, no sexual intention anyhow, while female was not. I also observe the revealing dresses of female sport dresses and I think that is unnecessary sexistic


It would be less sexistic if all competitions were in the nude and the audience would be held on a reasonable distance-