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Juan1234

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So what will it take for us to see fully nude female crucifixion on mainstream television or cinema, with Hollywood budgets and actors? I’m interested to hear everyone’s thoughts. Here are mine:

I think it will begin with somebody (maybe one of us!) writing a truly great novel that ends with the heroine nailed to a cross. But for it to work, I think the first 95% of the novel must be very non-erotic. Nobody can dismiss this as “erotica.” It’s a great, mainstream novel with immense literary value. And then at the end, she’s crucified. The setting for this “First-through-the-wall” novel probably would have to be Roman, so that the crucifixion feels like it’s just accurate. The author isn’t TRYING to write about crucifixion, it’s just what would happen. Even the final scene should be written in a “classy,” way - not shrinking from the cruel, humiliating reality, but not dwelling on sexualized moments, either. (In short, it should probably be written fairly differently from most of what I and other writers here have written.) So it’s a very “respectable” story, and the way it deals with crucifixion (maybe as a sort of metaphor for the place in society women are still fighting to free themselves from) is “hard-hitting” and “honest,” not erotic or sexualized. The tone will be key. “Respectable” audiences can swallow a lot if it feels high-brow and meaningful enough.

Then comes the movie. And from there, the cat is out of the bag.

(My stream-of-consciousness musings. Look forward to thoughts from others.)
 
Juan1234 said:
So what will it take for us to see fully nude female crucifixion on mainstream television or cinema, with Hollywood budgets and actors? I’m interested to hear everyone’s thoughts. Here are mine:

I think it will begin with somebody (maybe one of us!) writing a truly great novel that ends with the heroine nailed to a cross. But for it to work, I think the first 95% of the novel must be very non-erotic. Nobody can dismiss this as “erotica.” It’s a great, mainstream novel with immense literary value. And then at the end, she’s crucified. The setting for this “First-through-the-wall” novel probably would have to be Roman, so that the crucifixion feels like it’s just accurate. The author isn’t TRYING to write about crucifixion, it’s just what would happen. Even the final scene should be written in a “classy,” way - not shrinking from the cruel, humiliating reality, but not dwelling on sexualized moments, either. (In short, it should probably be written fairly differently from most of what I and other writers here have written.) So it’s a very “respectable” story, and the way it deals with crucifixion (maybe as a sort of metaphor for the place in society women are still fighting to free themselves from) is “hard-hitting” and “honest,” not erotic or sexualized. The tone will be key. “Respectable” audiences can swallow a lot if it feels high-brow and meaningful enough.

Then comes the movie. And from there, the cat is out of the bag.

(My stream-of-consciousness musings. Look forward to thoughts from others.)
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I think you should get busy and start writing that novel.;)
 
Juan1234 said:
it’s a very “respectable” story, and the way it deals with crucifixion (maybe as a sort of metaphor for the place in society women are still fighting to free themselves from) is “hard-hitting” and “honest,” not erotic or sexualized. The tone will be key.
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My naturally rebellious nature says to me that you are probably on the right track with this statement above. The story must fit into one of today's widely accepted and popular struggles ... such as the demand that women deserve an equal status in our society. Me too!
 
Barbaria1 said:
I think you should get busy and start writing that novel.;)
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That’s actually more or less what I had in mind when I began writing my first story here, “Journey to Rome.” But if anybody remembers that one, they’ll see quickly that: 1) It’s on the erotic side throughout, 2) I never finished it, it just ended up as a train wreck, and 3) Even without the previous two, it’s not even publishable quality, let alone “classic” literature quality.

My thinking has evolved and matured since then, too. I don’t think a story ABOUT crucifixion stands a chance in the mainstream market yet.
 
Main stream cinema does manage from time to time to depict crucifixion as a side story or incidental happening ... not necessarily as the climactic scene ... I seem to recall, for example, Russel Crowe coming home from campaign in the film gladiator to find his wife crucified (although only her legs appeared on screen, I think). The Spartacus tv drama also has crucifixion scenes.
 
Barbaria1 said:
Main stream cinema does manage from time to time to depict crucifixion as a side story or incidental happening ... not necessarily as the climactic scene ... I seem to recall, for example, Russel Crowe coming home from campaign in the film gladiator to find his wife crucified (although only her legs appeared on screen, I think). The Spartacus tv drama also has crucifixion scenes.
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Yes - they come close. It’s like they want to. Even in the recent Ben-Hur remake (if anyone was unfortunate enough to have seen it) - there’s a scene where soldiers are rounding up people to crucify them, and they focus on two women who are prominent characters. The soldiers take one of them and leave the other, but they almost belabor the point that these soldiers are about to crucify one of these girls. Then, of course, they don’t show the crucifixion at all. But you know they were thinking about it, and they seemed to want the audience to think about it. And that’s in a movie that was marketed at least partially to the “faith crowd.” That’s why I think if somebody wrote something great, that wasn’t blatantly and intentionally erotic, they would jump on it. It would be their excuse.
 
Eulalia said:
Hollywood isn't the only place where epic films are made, the Polish Quo Vadis film in 2001
featured a mass crucifixion including plenty of nearly-nude women, see:
http://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/mass-crux.7302/post-435273
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Yes - I think that scene is about as good as there has been. Of course it’s very quick, kind of distant, and they’re all wearing SOMETHING. But yes, a great scene.

I envision something where we have 5, 10, or 15 min watching a woman stripped and crucified. Similar to the crucifixion scenes in so many Jesus movies, but with a woman. And without a loincloth. :)

(I used “Hollywood” to represent the budget, production values, and quality I’m thinking of, not to imply that other parts of the world don’t make films as good or better.)
 
Juan1234 said:
That’s actually more or less what I had in mind when I began writing my first story here, “Journey to Rome.” But if anybody remembers that one, they’ll see quickly that: 1) It’s on the erotic side throughout, 2) I never finished it, it just ended up as a train wreck, and 3) Even without the previous two, it’s not even publishable quality, let alone “classic” literature quality.

My thinking has evolved and matured since then, too. I don’t think a story ABOUT crucifixion stands a chance in the mainstream market yet.
Click to expand...
Please consider that audiences of mainstream movies and TV shows are heterogeneous for breed,religion and habits: the majority of people around the world would not be inclined to trespass certain limits of morals and common sense. (although sometimes only apparent). The final part, notwithstanding not involving pornography,(at least in the intention),would decisively break those limits.
Also please don't forget that control of censorship applies in many Countries around the world which implies imposition of cuts and/or
changes of the forbidden scenes as a condition to license the movie.
When you write ...''but not dwelling on sexualized moments"...: truly the sight of a woman crucified naked is already sexually arousing by itself.
It is true that women crucified naked or partly clad have been already shown in mainstream movies and TV Series ( see "Quo Vadis" 2001
from Polish director Jerzy Kawalerowicz), but showing the main female character nailed stark naked to a cross (I suppose for a time not so
short) is a totally different matter.
Set aside said arguments, I believe that all of us attracted by female crucifixions would be delighted first to read and then to watch such scenes (as we already do),but we keep our fantasies restricted within CF.
Of course I am only expressing my personal point of view. Please everybody feel free to state their opinions.
Thanks for attention. Regards
HAMMERS
 
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hammers said:
Please consider that audiences of mainstream movies and TV shows are heterogeneous for breed,religion and habits: the majority of people around the world would not be inclined to trespass certain limits of morals and common sense. (although sometimes only apparent). The final part, notwithstanding not involving pornography,(at least in the intention),would decisively break those limits.
Also please don't forget that control of censorship applies in many Countries around the world which implies imposition of cuts and/or
changes of the forbidden scenes as a condition to license the movie.
When you write ...''but not dwelling on sexualized moments"...: truly the sight of a woman crucified naked is already sexually arousing by itself.
It is true that women crucified naked or partly clad have been already shown in mainstream movies and TV Series ( see "Quo Vadis" 2001
from Polish director Jerzy Kawalerowicz), but showing the main female character nailed stark naked to a cross (I suppose for a time not so
short) is a totally different matter.
Set aside said arguments, I believe that all of us attracted by female crucifixions would be delighted first to read and then to watch such scenes (as we already do),but we keep our fantasies restricted within CF.
Of course I am only expressing my personal point of view. Please everybody feel free to state their opinions.
Thanks for attention. Regards
HAMMERS
Click to expand...
I see what you’re saying, Hammers. My sense is that people’s limits in terms or morals and common sense are more flexible than they may seem. Maybe even more flexible than the viewers themselves believe. US and European television already shows an awful lot of nudity and cruelty. Many scenes in Spartacus, as an example, are essentially pornography, minus a few details. Detailed, “realistic” blood, gore, and cruelty toward men and women have been mainstream for a very long time. The Italian “Borgias” production includes nude men being executed more than once. So the hump people have to get over to be ok with seeing a woman executed without her clothes seems surmountable to me. I think if viewers can accept Cersei’s walk of shame, then they can probably accept a female crucifixion before long, IF they can be convinced it’s not just a gratuitous shock tactic. Of course various censors around the world will still choke. Not much we can do about that.
 
And... I’ll be honest here - the clips posted here and similar places are pretty much the only TV I ever watch, so I know less about some of this than most of you. But taking Cersei’s walk of shame as an example, isn’t that pretty gratuitous? Like the author just decided he wanted to write about this woman being forced to walk around naked, right? In contrast, a crucifixion in a historical setting might be necessary for historical accuracy. Instead of author/director deciding they want her naked, it could be more like they feel they have to show it as it was to be faithful to history. I think other things being equal (which they’re not, quite, but close) that should be easier for an audience to swallow.
 
There are lots of "mainstream" movies with full female nudity that make money.
One problem would be the obvious parallel to Jesus, which would generate a lot of adverse ink.
There is also a feminist aspect: it shouldn't have the feel that the woman is there to attract voyeurs.
So, there is Josephus' "Isis" story, in which Ide is crucified along with the priests of Isis for consipiring to violate the honor of a patrician Roman woman and succeeding. This has a sense of injustice (the guy who she helped to trick Paulina into sex is a Roman patrician, and gets off with exile). Someone would have to come up with a lot of backstory, since the whole thing is only around 100 lines or so.
Due to its placement with the (obviously edited by a copyist) "Testamentum Flavium", some people think this is a true story that was put forward as a kind of mockery of the Christian Jesus story (this is around 95 AD)
 
Well exposed and noted: thanks. I will look forward with interest to any writing from you or from other Authors developping the ideas you expressed.
The arguments treated lead me,in the meantime, to think as a possibility that plans already exist, not revealed so far, of some Director
somewhere to shoot a similar story including the final naked crucifixion of the leading female character. We will see!!
 
Frank Petrexa said:
So, there is Josephus' "Isis" story, in which Ide is crucified along with the priests of Isis for consipiring to violate the honor of a patrician Roman woman and succeeding. This has a sense of injustice (the guy who she helped to trick Paulina into sex is a Roman patrician, and gets off with exile). Someone would have to come up with a lot of backstory, since the whole thing is only around 100 lines or so.
Due to its placement with the (obviously edited by a copyist) "Testamentum Flavium", some people think this is a true story that was put forward as a kind of mockery of the Christian Jesus story (this is around 95 AD)
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Thank you, Frank, I hadn't heard that...
 
Juan1234 said:
Cersei’s walk of shame as an example, isn’t that pretty gratuitous?
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Hmmm, GoT of course had already established a bit of a reputation in that regard...

Obviously, the next cycle of any series dealing with a similarly built world, or something that wants to surpass HBO's Rome, will have to go a few steps further ;) - so maybe this serial format is the way to push those boundaries.

Maybe it doesn't need to be a final scene, and maybe it doesn't even have to be Roman... some setting with say, Alexander and the Persians might do the trick too. Or the story of Ide could be worked in as one strand of the narrative. Though these topics tend to be revisited cyclically and it's probably too soon to get another big Roman thing financed...? -- then again the possibilites for lower budget content creation are also constantly expanding.
 
Two separate challenges here, I guess.
The novel first. I think there is already one, that comes close, and that is Neropolis (the main female character is not crucified, but her fellow slaves are, at the end). Then there is the criterion of a mainly non-erotic story, of a heroin and her fate, with a crucifixion just at the end. I have posted one last year (http://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/queen-of-chaos.6405/). But perhaps the plot was too complicated and too long spun out, and it played in a fictional today, although it ended with a crucifixion. Just remember that nude torture scenes will always have a ‘juicy’ character, intended or not.
The movie will not a problem, if the director does a good cutting and camera positioning job, leaving some things to suggestion. Important, I think is that, at the end, there is not just a crucifixion, but that, during the crucifixion scenes, the story is not finished and only then comes to its climax or outcome!
Crucifixion as such is not necessarily referring to Jesus. Most viewers will be aware that crucifixion was a common death sentence during Roman times. This aspect could be framed well throughout the story, e.g. by adding another crucifixion earlier in the story, making clear the circumstances and practices of that sentence.
 
Frank Petrexa said:
There is also a feminist aspect: it shouldn't have the feel that the woman is there to attract voyeurs.
Click to expand...
As in many ways, there isn't one 'feminist aspect' - the idea of a female Christa has a good deal of support among Christian feminists,
and that can extend into creating - or collecting - images and videos of female crucifixion (a few websites promoting that have been found by folk here), and more generally conflicting views as to whether women should be inhibited from revealing, and acting out, aspects of our inner lives (of quite a lot of us) simply because we'll attract voyeurs. Some forms of feminism can be very puritanical and restraining! The increasingly graphic, realistic treatment of crucifixion and other atrocities on one side, and of female assertiveness - including, for some us at least - exposing our bodies to at least the same horrors as male heroes face - makes the possibility a real one, though there'd be howls of horror from both conservative and (some) feminist camps.
 
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