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  • Thread starter The Fallen Angel
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I can't think of a single reason why anyone would be vehemently against such a common sense thing.
That's the point! But that's the rational thing!

My dear friend Loxuru, at the risk of repeating myself (actually, no risk involved--I AM repeating myself!), the mask is not for YOU. It is for others with whom you come in contact, in case you are carrying the nuevo coronovirus (which is entirely possible even if you have no symptoms).
And that is the point too, also from a rational viewpoint. No objection against that.

me was saw in shop one old boy almost spanky other old boy becuse not wear mask oho meow :oops: :cat: :conejo: :mouse:
But this is the irrational reality. I deliberately brought up the association with the climate protest, because the climate protersters are not thinking rationally, but are mostly scared about the implications of climate than others, and particularly, how it will affect themselves. It is not about rationalism, it is about 'fear of contamination', how climate change, alike corona, could affect them personally. So they require protective measures, not only for themselves, but also to be implemented to everybody, mandatory.

I'm not saying that it's a problem specific to the Republicans. Rather, I see it as an inherent problem with our political system, especially in such countries where there are only two valid choices (the Reps or Dems) in every political question. And in such a time as politically polarized as this, everything involves politics, or rather choosing a side.

Which brings the whole debate into a 'choosing sides' context, as Fallenmystic points out correctly.

Working daily with environmental issues. I more than once have to bring down a debate back to scientific ratio and out of the irrational 'fear of contamination' zone.
 
What signs people wearing a mask show is : 1) distrust to others 2) aggression, they look angry, because they see those without a mask as a dangerous threat, 3) defensive ; they hide their face, 4) ulitmately they make clear, they only care about themselves. That's how others can perceive it, and fundamentally, it is perceived as an expression of the Deadly Sin of Vanity!
I think such a taboo about wearing a mask is mostly a regional thing, because it doesn't exist where I live and I believe it's more or less the same in many other Asian countries. Also, I believe that such defensive or agressive behaviours are present on the both sides of the fence, like it is the case with pretty much every other social and political issues.

For instance, there have been numerous instances of those who wear masks getting ridiculed or even physically attacked on public, especially at the beginning of the pandemic.

But this is the irrational reality. I deliberately brought up the association with the climate protest, because the climate protersters are not thinking rationally, but are mostly scared about the implications of climate than others, and particularly, how it will affect themselves. It is not about rationalism, it is about 'fear of contamination', how climate change, alike corona, could affect them personally. So they require protective measures, not only for themselves, but also to be implemented to everybody, mandatory.
I have to agree that we have a lot of people who push such an agenda with a less rational motive. But I also believe that the concern regarding the global warming itself is pretty much a scientific consensus at the moment. Those facts are not mutually exclusive and people can be as much irrational, bigoted, defensive, or aggressive with something that is true as with those are not.

For example, most of us understand that racial discrimination is a horrible thing (except on CF, because it's one of my favourite themes when it comes to D/s fantasies :)) but that doesn't prevent some people from being self-righteous and aggressive in pushing that agenda.

As I see it, we always have extremists on both side of the political fence and they are both moronic but in different ways. Even in the matter of wearing a mask, we have such people who disguise their vehement hatred against those on the other side of the fence with their secondary concern of public health when they attack those who don't wear a mask.

Still, that doesn't mean that the concern those extremists wield like a weapon to hammer down their enemies is necessarily a false or misguided one. We can justly criticize those who routinely cry "cultural appropriation" whenever they see some white person is doing something they conceive as "their own", for example, without denying that such a thing as cultural appropriation or even racial discrimination actually exists.
 
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Well, the only 'face mask' incident I had, was some 2 months ago, at the peak of the pandemia. In a supermarket, a lady, wearing a face mask (I was not), blocking the Crossroads of the corridoors with her shopping cart, completly ignoring that she was in the way of everybody. As soon as I got the opportunity, I passed along her, estimating to keep a safe distances, but nevertheless she started complaining that I was coming too close.

About a minute later, I met her again, in a corridoor, moving in the opposite direction.
"Now, you are doint it again!" she complained.
My reaction was to point at the arrows on the floor, indicating a route that just avoided such conflicts.
"Lady, I am following the arrows, you are not!" I replied.

I have seen her a third time (keeping a distance behind her). Suddenly social distancing did not matter anymore for, since I saw her overtaking three people, in the same narrow corridoors, to rush to the pay desks.
 
Forty-Five Years ago
Today, New Jersey Beaches Open
I'm too "young" to remember the film in detail. I only vaguely remember it was a horror-flick involving sharks. But now I watched that clip, I can clearly see how it became one of the most successful horror films of all time - I'm truly horrified to look at the girl's face and I feel worried what that creature would do to those poor innocent aquatic animals.
 
I can understand the sentiment and people shouldn’t be forced into doing things they feel unnatural under normal circumstances. Unfortunately though, I think a pandemic like this is neither natural nor normal, so I think it’s inevitable to sacrifice such freedom to a certain extent, especially when it can determine the life or death of more vulnerable people.

How much freedom we should be willing to give up can be a matter for a debate, however.

Exactly, and this is part of the issue in the US. It's a very individual focused society, without a strong sense of acting for the common good (forgive me if I am wrong). A great many people see their individual rights as sacrosanct, and what has been advised from a medical standpoint has been interpreted from a political and ideological one - but viruses don't respect ideology.

Yet the same people accept that they have to have a driving licence to drive a car, or that school attendance is compulsory. Weird.

I turn 64 in a few days and have never worn a mask all my life. Its just not a "natural" thing to do for me...

I can understand that, it's odd and uncomfortable and a strange new thing. But this is not a normal situation, and it was long before you were born that we had a similarly serious outbreak. Masks have been used by medical professionals for a very long time, it's not a statement, it's just risk reduction. Sometimes you need to act not just for your own interests, but for the good of the whole community.

I can't think of a single reason why anyone would be vehemently against such a common sense thing.

I can think of lots of reasons, we see them every day in the media, but they are largely rooted in politics and individual rights not medicine.
 
I can understand that, it's odd and uncomfortable and a strange new thing. But this is not a normal situation, and it was long before you were born that we had a similarly serious outbreak. Masks have been used by medical professionals for a very long time, it's not a statement, it's just risk reduction. Sometimes you need to act not just for your own interests, but for the good of the whole community.
It is not a comfort thing... how does this Covad-19 happen and why can't we cure it? We have trashed the US economy (and the world's in general) and have not found a cure or vaccine. I do wear a mask when required and I remember to bring it. I even put one in my car!
 
Being "mutt 'n' jeff"( deaf) I rely on lip-reading...
I've lost count of the times I've had to (politely) ask people to lower their ( damn ) masks,so's I could understand what they were saying....grrr !!
Horrible things,steam up my glasses and makes my face sweat....and don't get me started on the latex gloves !!
I do understand the hygiene aspect,but.....to me,it's such a faffle.
 
Anyway, my opinions on this... masks ...

Masks are a relatively low-impact, low-cost, and low-risk measure, especially if they're only mandated inside shops and regional public transport. Yes, wearing them for many hours can be a serious strain especially combined with physical exertion ... and there are real situations were they can cause problems, see Baracus' post.

I think the data and observations point clearly in the direction that they are an important contribution to controlling the pandemic.
But let's assume that turns out to be a smaller contribution than at first believed.
How much damage is done by wearing masks? How much freedom is lost?

On the other hand, if we ditch the masks, and it turns out they are more important than expected, and we get new waves of covid roaring back...
...then there will have to be hard lockdowns again?
That does much more damage inevitably, and is much more of a restriction of freedoms.

In general of course there are going to be different concepts of what 'freedom' means.

For instance, if it's me wearing a mask that means other people have to worry less about me possibly spreading my infectious droplets in their direction (I might be infected with not knowing it).

That means I help to contribute to the freedom of others by wearing a mask - for instance, vulnerable people may have more freedom to move and interact if everyone is making sure the air isn't saturated with covidated droplets.

And if we all stick to it and avoid a second wave we are all increasing each other's practical freedoms.

Freedom can be seen as a purely individual thing, 'I want to have all options of action for myself, hell or high water ' or it can be seen as a more societal thing, 'I want to go through life without being damaged or crushed by actions of those who exert their options without respect for others'. I clearly tend toward the latter, opinions may vary.


if you already chose a side, and for whatever reason your side decides if it's good or bad to do certain things, you just adopt that stance
With regards to the Covid situation, we also see that this can happen from opposite political perspectives.
Sweden has deliberately chosen to open its population to a herd-immunity approach, based on a progressive ideology. Basically any government that feels it does not need to be accountable to any authority outside of its own, and insulates itself from contradicting viewpoints either through narcissism of the leaders or ideological closed-mindedness of the ruling class can go down a rabbit-hole.
It is clear they knew at the time that that was a lie. They said it to avoid a run on masks. But when you are the "authority" the "scientists" and you openly lie, are you surprised when three months later some people don't believe you?
This was a problem with the initial communication about the pandemic in Germany too.

Originally the tone was that the 'novel coronavirus' is 'just like the flu' and people who were concerned about it were only 'Panikmacher' (panic-mongers) who were motivated by xenophobia. A while later the risk was accepted as real but masks were condemned as being less than useless, - they woudn't protect 'cvilians,' it was also claimed that the normal citizen would increase their risk of infection by wearing them, the idea of protecting others was not accepted at all. This changed toward late April when citizens where told they should start sewing masks in order to donate them to healthcare facilities; in my state, the government actually offered kits for making masks at home. By the time of the relaxations in May the swerve to 'wear masks in order to protect others' was completed, and so the communication had caught up to what informed opinion had been from the beginning.

The reason for this is clear -- the government understood that masks were necessary, however they could not be provided in timely fashion because our economy didn't have the production capacity ... almost all the capacity was in China and they weren't selling at the time, for obvious reasons.

Admitting this would have meant losing face as it would have brought into light some side effects of 'globalisation' i.e. the creation of extreme dependency on single sources for simple items that nevertheless could suddenly become strategically important. However admitting that the prevalent economic ideology could have any downsides to it, is a no-go and needs to be avoided.

So instead of admitting 'we need masks but can't make them' the communication strategy was 'say masks are useless and even counterproductive until exactly the point when we suddenly pivot and say they're mandatory, ... and that point will come exactly when we've figured out the supply issues'.

That is of course rather contemptuous of the public and only contributes to incubating distrust.


So they require protective measures, not only for themselves, but also to be implemented to everybody, mandatory.
I do see 'wear masks in a small fraction of your daily life interactions' as a relatively low-cost thing, not comparable to the notion of letting a small group of activists redesign the entire economy... it's a question of risk management, accepting a small cost to perhaps blunt a large threat, and if the measure does turn out to be ineffective, it can be dropped with no irreversible damage done. Lockdowns are far more coercive and costly than mask-wearing.

I think such a taboo about wearing a mask is mostly a regional thing, because it doesn't exist where I live and I believe it's more or less the same in many other Asian countries. Also, I believe that such defensive or agressive behaviours are present on the both sides of the fence, like it is the case with pretty much every other social and political issues.

For instance, there have been numerous instances of those who wear masks getting ridiculed
That's how I see it here too. In the time before masks were officially endorsed it would be almost exclusively people of East Asian descent, or couples where one partner was East Asian, who could be seen wearing masks in supermarkets etc. Social shaming worked against mask-wearing outside of that group, as if it was an 'anti-European act' to wear a mask. I was an early dissenter there and was definitely looked at as a bit of an oddball. The truth is that the decisive time to wear them was in March, when infections were quickly growing. Also both my son and I had a respiratory ailment in early March which I'd wager wasn't Covid but how would I have known? - that was the point when I decided to self-quarantine, and also start wearing the masks I'd bought in early February. I certainly didn't damage anybody's freedom with that...
 
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oho squirrel not wanna tommorow monday meow :oops: :cat::conejo: :mouse: View attachment 875021

I think Bon Jovi is one of the "underrated" bands in a sense. Although being so popular, too many people don't take them seriously because Jon is too good-looking. When the modern and alternative rock hit the scene, Bon Jovi became one of the very few "Glam Rock" bands that managed to withstand the wave by adopting some of the elements from the new trend while still keeping their identity.

My official "Monday songs" are "Manic Monday" from The Bangles, and "Monday Monday" from Mamas and Papas, however. I'm saving them for the music nostalgia thread. :)
 
Such is the case for most English speakers except those born and educated in some parts of England. This is true for many who have only one language and it has no 'u' in its 'flavor'.

"The Americans and British, two people separated by a common language."

And that applies to virtually every English speaking country in the world, not only to each other but many times within their own national boundaries.

I was at an event one time with an English (born near London) friend of mine and we ran into a friend of his who was cockney. Well the cockney was very drunk and gave us a long dissertation in what I am sure he was convinced was English. When he staggered away we all looked at my friend and his response was "Don't look at me, I don't speak that language."

And the cockney parts of England are a hell of a lot closer to London than say NYC is to Atlanta or Chicago.

English is one of the most fluid languages in history, constantly developing new words, adapting others from other languages or changing meanings.

kisses

willowfall
 
"The Americans and British, two people separated by a common language."

And that applies to virtually every English speaking country in the world, not only to each other but many times within their own national boundaries.

I was at an event one time with an English (born near London) friend of mine and we ran into a friend of his who was cockney. Well the cockney was very drunk and gave us a long dissertation in what I am sure he was convinced was English. When he staggered away we all looked at my friend and his response was "Don't look at me, I don't speak that language."

And the cockney parts of England are a hell of a lot closer to London than say NYC is to Atlanta or Chicago.

English is one of the most fluid languages in history, constantly developing new words, adapting others from other languages or changing meanings.

kisses

willowfall

And can, like any language, be surprisingly conservative in far away or remote places, preserving archaic forms that have fallen by the wayside in the Queen’s own. Aspects of American English are like that.
 
"The Americans and British, two people separated by a common language."

And that applies to virtually every English speaking country in the world, not only to each other but many times within their own national boundaries.

I was at an event one time with an English (born near London) friend of mine and we ran into a friend of his who was cockney. Well the cockney was very drunk and gave us a long dissertation in what I am sure he was convinced was English. When he staggered away we all looked at my friend and his response was "Don't look at me, I don't speak that language."

And the cockney parts of England are a hell of a lot closer to London than say NYC is to Atlanta or Chicago.

English is one of the most fluid languages in history, constantly developing new words, adapting others from other languages or changing meanings.

kisses

willowfall
Cockney is only spoken in London, a true Cockney is a person born within the sound of Bow Bells,which in reality is a relatively small area.
 

I think Bon Jovi is one of the "underrated" bands in a sense. Although being so popular, too many people don't take them seriously because Jon is too good-looking. When the modern and alternative rock hit the scene, Bon Jovi became one of the very few "Glam Rock" bands that managed to withstand the wave by adopting some of the elements from the new trend while still keeping their identity.

My official "Monday songs" are "Manic Monday" from The Bangles, and "Monday Monday" from Mamas and Papas, however. I'm saving them for the music nostalgia thread. :)
What about the Boomtown Rats ??
" I don't like Mondays..." Lol
 
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