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The emergence of legal slavery

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Whereas I, as a Jew, would find the idea of Nazis in my fetish stories way too uncomfortable. Likewise I can go with a lot of execution methods, but the gas chamber isn't one of them.

Interesting theories on different ways of raisng women there - can't comment on their accuracy, but it has helped make clear that I don't have much of a particular preference for a girl's race, build, family status or personality.
I think that accuracy is not as important in terms of the fiction we are producing here, as long as it feels like it could be true. It’s probably based on stereotypes and misreading situations, but it works as a model.
 
I think that accuracy is not as important in terms of the fiction we are producing here, as long as it feels like it could be true. It’s probably based on stereotypes and misreading situations, but it works as a model.
True - but there's no reason you can't have a slight, submissive black girl (I'm sure there were many in the plantation days) or a strong, burly Asian, save perhaps lack of models if you're using images.
 
True - but there's no reason you can't have a slight, submissive black girl (I'm sure there were many in the plantation days) or a strong, burly Asian, save perhaps lack of models if you're using images.
I’m going to keep going back to archetype, and for me, I have not experienced the archetype of the submissive black female, probably because they don’t want to be portrayed that way. Again, speaking mainly about the archetype, I see them as bold, confrontational, and definitely not afraid to say what they think. Also, I get the feeling that Black people in America aren’t into bondage and SM and consider things like, bad example but..., heard some people call fifty shades of grey “Crazy white people shit”
 
I’m going to keep going back to archetype, and for me, I have not experienced the archetype of the submissive black female, probably because they don’t want to be portrayed that way. Again, speaking mainly about the archetype, I see them as bold, confrontational, and definitely not afraid to say what they think. Also, I get the feeling that Black people in America aren’t into bondage and SM and consider things like, bad example but..., heard some people call fifty shades of grey “Crazy white people shit”

Well, you can get why the connotations are pretty different to them. Still, fiction is a lot freer in casting. And archetypes are also good setups for subversions.
 
I believe this is less for political reasons than because the vast majority of the members are white and perhaps don't identify as easily with characters of other races. But then, many male writers, myself included, write about female victims. I have generally tried to put characters of a variety of ethnic backgrounds in my stories, though they are generally US born and raised and culturally American. For what it's worth, our Chinese members seem generally to depict Chinese victims.
I think the bit about characters of different ethnic backgrounds but US culturization makes the point -- much of this has to do more with cultural familiarity rather than 'race', ethnicity or something such as skin color which of course can be quite varying even within one family! -- it's far easier to create nuanced characters on the background of cultures you're familiar with.

As a writer with some self-criticism we will not be wanting to create for any central role, a cardboard cutout 'ethnic' character constructed from stereotypes, assumptions and half-knowledge. Neither for readers nor for our own enjoyment. As peripheral characters they might be ok...

So it's easier to stick with what we're are confident we can write about with convincing, natural immersiveness. In creating a character with foreign roots but local upbringing, one can use some surface knowledge of that foreign background together with deeper knowledge of the various prejudices and assumptions existing in our own cultures to create a realistic, individualized character with some tension in their identity ... while using only surface knowledge of a foreign background to create a core character will run the risk of creating a cruely hewn standin for a group.

Of course it's possible to subvert this with self-aware, tongue in cheek usage of stereotypes. But an example you can note here on the site is that there are some people who have researched the Romans to such a degree that they can create an immersive illusion, and the roman aspect really feels like a proper background and setting ... but there are also stories where it's just cookie cutter stuff....

the observation that the executioners/ Flagellators/ Torturers
are so often portrayed as non-white, especially Arabic, or otherwise stereotyped Muslims,
or else Black

I find that especially in images - most extremely in 3D computer-rendered images - the tormentor(s) are ridiculously reduced stereotypes. If there are several of them they tend to be clones of the same bald expressionless hulk.

Now of course most of the creators of these images are guys, who usually focus their creative energy and attention to detail on the female victim; it's only a minority of them who dare to portray the tormentor as 'actually the very person of themselves, the author' -- instead the tormentors are more often generic representations of amoral sexual energy -- comparable to the 'headless dicks' you'll see in porn ;) -- and in that case making them the cultural 'Other' is probably an easy decision driven by the subconscious.

Especially if the creator harbors some pangs of guilt about fully identifying with his impulses which seems to be a quite common phenomenon ... in that case it's easiest to just go for 'othering' those manifestations of the dark aspects of his self, which will be seen as 'uncivilized', 'raw' etc, and for the average white guy that can easily be the bald black muscle-hulk who will stand in for a stereotype of 'untamed barbarian sex drive'.

It's important though to recognize that it's not only 'white people', or the European-derived cultures associated with that appearence, who are capable of harboring stereotypes; other groups also assign distinct sexual stereotypes assigned to certain instances of 'The Other' from their pespective, and if you dare to look at the sexual fantasies created in other cultures, such prejudices can also be quite obvious.

For my taste the tormentor should introduce himself, not inevitably as a man of wealth, but always of taste, with a reason for what he does, and no matter what his origin and extraction, a disciplined master of himself so he shall better be a master of others, and not just some hulk or golem.

but I love using Nazi’s as villains
Well compared with other stereotypes the Nazi stereotype, especially if you're talking about the SS, Gestapo etc types, are guys who consciously signed up for the dark side. Also instantly recognizable iconography is always useful to get a story up and running quickly... Nazis, zombies, and vampires are always instantly recognizable and out of those the Nazis are the only ones who actually chose their look themselves ;)
 
For my taste the tormentor should introduce himself, not inevitably as a man of wealth, but always of taste, with a reason for what he does, and no matter what his origin and extraction, a disciplined master of himself so he shall better be a master of others, and not just some hulk or golem.
Thanks, Malins. You just described the rep I am going for myself.
Staff.jpg
(actually unnecessary to say - I am the most distinguished guy on the right side)
 
I think the bit about characters of different ethnic backgrounds but US culturization makes the point -- much of this has to do more with cultural familiarity rather than 'race', ethnicity or something such as skin color which of course can be quite varying even within one family! -- it's far easier to create nuanced characters on the background of cultures you're familiar with.

As a writer with some self-criticism we will not be wanting to create for any central role, a cardboard cutout 'ethnic' character constructed from stereotypes, assumptions and half-knowledge. Neither for readers nor for our own enjoyment. As peripheral characters they might be ok...

So it's easier to stick with what we're are confident we can write about with convincing, natural immersiveness. In creating a character with foreign roots but local upbringing, one can use some surface knowledge of that foreign background together with deeper knowledge of the various prejudices and assumptions existing in our own cultures to create a realistic, individualized character with some tension in their identity ... while using only surface knowledge of a foreign background to create a core character will run the risk of creating a cruely hewn standin for a group.

Of course it's possible to subvert this with self-aware, tongue in cheek usage of stereotypes. But an example you can note here on the site is that there are some people who have researched the Romans to such a degree that they can create an immersive illusion, and the roman aspect really feels like a proper background and setting ... but there are also stories where it's just cookie cutter stuff....



I find that especially in images - most extremely in 3D computer-rendered images - the tormentor(s) are ridiculously reduced stereotypes. If there are several of them they tend to be clones of the same bald expressionless hulk.

Now of course most of the creators of these images are guys, who usually focus their creative energy and attention to detail on the female victim; it's only a minority of them who dare to portray the tormentor as 'actually the very person of themselves, the author' -- instead the tormentors are more often generic representations of amoral sexual energy -- comparable to the 'headless dicks' you'll see in porn ;) -- and in that case making them the cultural 'Other' is probably an easy decision driven by the subconscious.

Especially if the creator harbors some pangs of guilt about fully identifying with his impulses which seems to be a quite common phenomenon ... in that case it's easiest to just go for 'othering' those manifestations of the dark aspects of his self, which will be seen as 'uncivilized', 'raw' etc, and for the average white guy that can easily be the bald black muscle-hulk who will stand in for a stereotype of 'untamed barbarian sex drive'.

It's important though to recognize that it's not only 'white people', or the European-derived cultures associated with that appearence, who are capable of harboring stereotypes; other groups also assign distinct sexual stereotypes assigned to certain instances of 'The Other' from their pespective, and if you dare to look at the sexual fantasies created in other cultures, such prejudices can also be quite obvious.

For my taste the tormentor should introduce himself, not inevitably as a man of wealth, but always of taste, with a reason for what he does, and no matter what his origin and extraction, a disciplined master of himself so he shall better be a master of others, and not just some hulk or golem.


Well compared with other stereotypes the Nazi stereotype, especially if you're talking about the SS, Gestapo etc types, are guys who consciously signed up for the dark side. Also instantly recognizable iconography is always useful to get a story up and running quickly... Nazis, zombies, and vampires are always instantly recognizable and out of those the Nazis are the only ones who actually chose their look themselves ;)
Excellent, thoughtful post, malins. I think you summarise the situation really well (which means I agree with just about everything you say!)
 
A few thoughts:
One setting not mentioned here is the 'white slavery' by North Africans, on which this story is based :


These slave traders often emptied entire islands, and even went as far as scandinavia and Ireland. In a span of 250 years, about 1.5 million slaves have been captured. The Barbary coast pirates were such a plague, that the young USA gave up its 'virginity' ("we are no imperialists, so we shall not have a Navy"), build warships and started its first international war ('to the shores of Tripoli' from the Marines hymn). Piracy only really stopped around 1830, when France took action, conquered large parts of Northern Africa and colonised them.

When I think of 'legal' slavery, well, it's all in the word 'legal', which means that it is either anchored in a 'constitution', which is based on a concept of either superiority of a population (based on either racial, skin colour, religion,...) , or at least a legal distinction between citizenship and non-citizenship, opening the way of enslaving the latter in certain conditions. Otherwise there is no constitution, but simply absolutist power or tyranny.

In both situations, there is a different notion of ethics and human rights than we have. It could of course set a background for a story.

For instance : http://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/for-the-pleasure-of-prince-uday.6161/

Concerning 'archetypes', I think indeed that all characters in our stories have archetypic threats, since they are the sublimation of a common fantasy, making our story background worlds also some kind of 'parallel universe', populated only with people over 18 who either want to get crucified, or want see someone crucified.

An isolated Island of fantasy, indeed.
 
For my taste the tormentor should introduce himself, not inevitably as a man of wealth, but always of taste, with a reason for what he does, and no matter what his origin and extraction, a disciplined master of himself so he shall better be a master of others, and not just some hulk or golem.

Hmm... that's certainly one type, but an excess of use can overcivilize barbarity - and much of what we do here is barbarity by any standard. Tormenting others is rarely the sign of a disciplined mind.

A few thoughts:
One setting not mentioned here is the 'white slavery' by North Africans, on which this story is based :


Concerning 'archetypes', I think indeed that all characters in our stories have archetypic threats, since they are the sublimation of a common fantasy, making our story background worlds also some kind of 'parallel universe', populated only with people over 18 who either want to get crucified, or want see someone crucified.

An isolated Island of fantasy, indeed.

The fact that I can't really fit my head around such worlds probably explains why I only came here by express invitation.
 
Hmm... that's certainly one type, but an excess of use can overcivilize barbarity - and much of what we do here is barbarity by any standard. Tormenting others is rarely the sign of a disciplined mind.
It wasn't always like that -- Pliny the Younger, that bland and elegant senatorial writer, mentions executing people in batches and torturing two female slaves to satisfy his curiosity about a new cult they belonged to as a matter of routine.

Here's the link to the old discussion of race in CF fantasies, it might be interesting.
 
It wasn't always like that -- Pliny the Younger, that bland and elegant senatorial writer, mentions executing people in batches and torturing two female slaves to satisfy his curiosity about a new cult they belonged to as a matter of routine.

Oh, the Romans were the experts in civilising barbarity - they make great models for that sort of thing. But as products of a more enlightened era, we should be aware of the contradiction. And often one way they maintained this civil guise was to outsource their brutality to lower-class men, who took out their frustrations on being lower-class on those beneath even them.
 
Hmm... that's certainly one type, but an excess of use can overcivilize barbarity - and much of what we do here is barbarity by any standard. Tormenting others is rarely the sign of a disciplined mind.
Well it's just my taste in fantasy ... though anyway when I get captured I'll have little choice as to what style my torturer subscribes to ... ;)
On 'civilization' -- I don't think being 'civilized', (having a complex rules-based society with lots of specialization etc) -- equals to any specific ethics...
 
Well it's just my taste in fantasy ... though anyway when I get captured I'll have little choice as to what style my torturer subscribes to ... ;)
On 'civilization' -- I don't think being 'civilized', (having a complex rules-based society with lots of specialization etc) -- equals to any specific ethics...

True, but we like o pretend it does. The very term "barbaric" was invented by cultures we can justifiably look down on today for their own deeds. But it's really just the kind of deflection that births terms like "inhumane" - as if we were not naturally a race that caused suffering to others!

And as I said, the truly civilized gentleman has thugs to hurt people for him.
 
As with anything, the question if a culture is barbaric, depends on your definition. If you are using the wrong fork in a 5 star restaurant, the maitre will take you for a barbar.
I am absolut sure that in 500 years (if there are still humans who have time to philosophize), some of our ways will looked at as barbaric.
 
Waaah! I thought I would get first class service not these filthy third-rate thugs!
What do I need to do to prove I'm worthy of being tortured by the true gentleman?? Well probably all I can do is take the thug-torture as best I can...
Malins, I don't know if I'm a thug or a gentleman, but I would insist on torturing you personally.

My villains are typically professors, Deans, priests, hedge fund billionaires and assorted riffraff...
 
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