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The Turin Shroud's Dna - A New Examination

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phlebas

PRIMUS POENUS
Staff member
I offer this without any intention to make a religious point.
The magazine Nature has just published an article examining the DNA evidence found on the Turin Shroud.
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep14484

I find it fascinating to think that an artifact, a relic, might have had such an interesting and eventful existence. It also says something about how both material and people could travel considerable distances in ancient and medieval times.
And this artifact is related to our topic of crucifixion.

Does it have anything to tell us about the nature of crucifixion, I wonder?
 
Regarding the dating of the shroud, we are often reminded of the carbon dating results that place the shroud in or around the 13th - 14th century, yet these often ignore the fact that the shroud was partially damaged by fire (at least once) in the 1500's

The fire would have resulted in a general enrichment of the carbon content of the cloth, causing the carbon date to appear more recent than it actually is. Much has been said about this point in the past but there are scientific procedures that should have been followed prior to the actual testing that would have minimised or at least partially compensated for this fact, yet by all accounts, these procedures were not followed prior to the 1988 carbon dating tests, so we still don't know much about its date.

Regarding the presence of a very wide diversity of DNA types in the samples, one must remember that if the shroud is truly authentic (personally I'm a sceptic, but that's not the point), then it will have made a long and difficult journey from the Middle East to Europe and will have been handled by a wide variety of people from different places, and so it may be possible to construct a geographical timeline of its travels over the centuries.

Whether there is sufficient information currently available to do this is somewhat debatable but this would be a really fascinating project...
 
Regarding the presence of a very wide diversity of DNA types in the samples, one must remember that if the shroud is truly authentic (personally I'm a sceptic, but that's not the point), then it will have made a long and difficult journey from the Middle East to Europe and will have been handled by a wide variety of people from different places, and so it may be possible to construct a geographical timeline of its travels over the centuries.
Pp will read the journal article later to understand whether the work identifies the DNA of individuals who may have handled the cloth or is that of a mix of individuals.
The DNA of anyone who may have handled the cloth would, of course, be a mix of the DNA of many as people moved and intermingled over the millenia.
Most Europeans are believed to descend from farmers who slowly moved northeast from what is now Turkey so the DNA of the modern European would be likely to reflect the peoples encountered on the way.
 
I read a lot of the article in detail, looked at the tables of results, had to look up some of the terms to make sure I understood to what they referred, and scanned over the rest. It is VERY interesting, I think, maybe not to everyone. This quote from their conclusion is worth noting:

In conclusion, our results on human mtDNA traces detected on the TS are compatible with both alternative scenarios that i) the cloth had a Medieval origin in Western Europe where people from different geographic regions and ethnic affiliations came in contact with it, possibly moved by the worship for the Christian relic; ii) the linen cloth had a Middle Eastern origin and was moved itself across the Mediterranean area, consequently coming across a wide range of local folks and devotes in a longer time span.​

Which says that they really can't state definitively the origin of the shroud. It could be medieval European in origin, or it could have come from the Middle East.

I'm a skeptic myself. From a religious viewpoint, for me the shroud is irrelevant. From a scientific standpoint, it's a curiosity whose provenance has yet to be proven and thus is unacceptable as a reliable picture of a crucifixion victim. Just my opinion, of course, and everyone is entitled to their own.
 
From a religious viewpoint, for me the shroud is irrelevant
I agree. Theologically, a dead end.

Had he wanted, God could have revealed himself to scientific method so often. Wave to Galilei through his telescope. Press his nose against Gagarin's space capsule: hello there you cosmonauting communist, what now? - but he didn't.

So why expect to find him in DNA from dirty linen.

Think of the contortions, Jesus must have half his DNA from good mother Mary but from where the other half? If it's all Joseph's - we end up again with God's substance is physically indetectable. No gain. Otherwise if it isn't, hmm, do we analyze God's genome? The Y chromosome is pure Tetragrammaton inheritance? Next, clone half-gods? This way lie absurd heresies ;)
I'll have to stop that train of thought as an alert is popping up in my phone, Urgent Appointment. That will be Torquemada again.
 
I agree. Theologically, a dead end.
It may even be theologically irrelevant to the faith, except perhaps as a potential object of veneration. However, if one is going to base one's faith on the verification or authenticity of objects, one is almost sure to be disappointed or left in doubt. I often think Islam is at a disadvantage since they have a real, actual, historically verified prophet, where Christians have no objective proof of Jesus existence, except second and thirdhand accounts and stories. This makes him a much more stable religious figurehead (there is no historical record of a scandal, for example). Jesus is the person in the story, and will never have his halo tarnished by history.:cool:

As to the shroud's verification or provenance, even if it were proven to come from the Middle East, it would still not definitively prove Jesus' historical existence, and debate can therefore continue happily into eternity. Very good news for religion there, I think.:D

Can we be sure the image is of a man? :)
View attachment 298080

I like that. :)
 
From a religious viewpoint, for me the shroud is irrelevant.

Well yes, even the Church doesn't officially make claims about it.
As an artifact it is fascinating. If it were shown to be 2000 years old it would be wonderful, religion aside. I have seen suggestions for example that the Mandylion, an Orthodox relic, may have been the Shroud folded so that only the face was visible. I love the idea of this cloth travelling over great distances and many centuries, gathering mystery about it.
Probably too much to hope though.

;)
I'll have to stop that train of thought as an alert is popping up in my phone, Urgent Appointment. That will be Torquemada again.

I can see why :devil:

I often think Islam is at a disadvantage since they have a real, actual, historically verified prophet, where Christians have no objective proof of Jesus existence, except second and thirdhand accounts and stories.

I wonder . . . . . . . . . . . is it as clear a difference as that?
 
I often think Islam is at a disadvantage since they have a real, actual, historically verified prophet, where Christians have no objective proof of Jesus existence, except second and thirdhand accounts and stories.
Interesting, isn't it, that Islam accepts the existence of Jesus but paints him, like Mohammad, as a prophet. He appears in no less than 93 verses of the Quran. In Islam he is known as Isa ibn Maryam or, in English, Jesus the son of Mary and he is consider a Muslim which means, literally, one who submits to the will of God.

I'll have to stop that train of thought as an alert is popping up in my phone, Urgent Appointment. That will be Torquemada again.
Pp hesitates to remind Malin that "no one expects the Spanish Inquisition" ...sorry, like Wragg PP is smitten by Monty and his Python. :D
 
If you accept the accuracy of the carbon dating, and I'm not saying that I do, then who is the model that was used to create the fake shroud? Was it a criminal who was executed, or a religious zealot that volunteered or maybe someone was kidnapped and then killed? Someone certainly suffered a painful flogging with a lead-tipped whip and was then nailed to a cross and later stabbed in the side. How would feel if you were the victim chosen?

Even if the shroud was not from the time of Christ it probably represents an accurate representation of a real crucifixion. A couple things seem to indicate the shroud is from Roman times. First the leaded whip is probably more accurate than later versions that used metal and bone whip ends. And two, the shroud shows the nails through the wrists while most crucifixion art in Europe in the 12th century incorrectly showed the nails through the hands of the victim.
 
Pp hesitates to remind Malin that "no one expects the Spanish Inquisition"
Though it may be near unbearable to even hear of this, I will then reveal to you that I have been sat in the Comfy Chair before. The first time had something to do with the heresy of the eucharist of the chocolate christ. Everything more must remain unspoken. It is a violation from which one cannot recover.
 
Though it may be near unbearable to even hear of this, I will then reveal to you that I have been sat in the Comfy Chair before. The first time had something to do with the heresy of the eucharist of the chocolate christ. Everything more must remain unspoken. It is a violation from which one cannot recover.
Pp interest in knowing more of both the crime and the Comfy Chair is, most certainly, piqued but it might be for malins to tell us at another time.
 
Though it may be near unbearable to even hear of this, I will then reveal to you that I have been sat in the Comfy Chair before. The first time had something to do with the heresy of the eucharist of the chocolate christ. Everything more must remain unspoken. It is a violation from which one cannot recover.

So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see . . . . . . . .
you will stay in the Comfy Chair until lunch time, with only a cup of coffee at eleven
 
Photos or it didn't happen.
:D

The researchers used the image on the cloth to work out the mechanics of the crucifixion, such as where the nails were hammered in, according to the abstract. They tried to re-create these features when they placed each volunteer on the cross. The male subjects “were carefully chosen to correspond, as closely as possible, to the physiology depicted by the frontal and dorsal imprints visible on the Shroud of Turin,” they write in the abstract. “The cross and suspension system were designed to accommodate various positional adjustments of the body as appropriate.” Edit

Were they also carefully stripped naked and nailed in position? What kind of shoddy research was this!

There is a back story here that maybe is of some interest. The Shroud of Turin is a cloth which surfaced in Medieval times which bears an imprint of a crucified man--but it's a photographic negative. The man has his hands strategically placed to cover his penis (why not use an extra cloth for modesty, Joe of Arimathea, and you have shroud to preserve modesty anyway), and looks just like Jesus is supposed to have looked--like Cesare Borgia, according to the blog "how did Jesus get so hot?". (An English forensic anatomist proposed a very different picture of Jesus based on skeletons from the time--a short guy with dark skin and a big nose.) The cloth has scorch marks from a fire in the cathedral in which it is kept under glass. The image is highly distorted, with legs and arms clearly out of proportion with each other and with the trunk.
There is an existing letter to the Pope at the time, which says that "the cloth is a forgery, and I know the artist".
This cloth was suddenly "discovered" by religious types and offered as proof of the resurrection. The archbishop allowed samples to be taken (avoiding the scorched areas). "Porphyrins" were found by a (mostly) evangelical scientific team, among whose members was this physicist Jackson. They claimed this was evidence of blood. Pollen grains from the Middle East were found on the cloth. Jackson apparently is still at what he did then. He employed lasers and other sophisticated high tech on real people to "prove" that the distorted image could have been caused by "cloth drape". He also claimed there was evidence that the image was caused by an "intense" energy field--probably "dazzling light".
The non-evangelical member of the team pointed out the presence of red ochre and other pigments. Iron could have come from pigments. Porphyrins are present in plants (chlorophyll, for example), not just heme in blood. Pollen blows around a lot, and can be found in Antarctica. So, three of the samples were carbon-dated. All showed a Medieval date. The samples dated at the University of Arizona in Tucson and in Zurich agreed within experimental error. The one from Oxford (if I recall--maybe Cambridge) was earlier and was an outlier, but still 12th century. A statistical analysis using a "chi-squared test" (which computes the probability that different results came from a common sample) showed it was improbable that the Oxford result came from the same sample. The results were published in the peer-reviewed journal Science (it was a formal paper, but the journal also has a news section, to which this link years later refers.)
People also replicated the "photographic negative" by carving a statue in wood and draping a pigmented cloth over it ("The Skeptical Enquirer" got the effect using a cheap souvenir punch out of Bing Crosby's face--basically a Halloween mask).
Statistics texts will tell you that chi-squared is not really valid with only three data points (you can derive examples), and a statistician on the Oxford team attributed the result to "bad luck" (mathematically speaking).
But the "Shroud Science" proponents seized on the discrepancy to claim that the Oxford team was engaged in fraud. They claimed the letter to the Pope (which physically exists) was "never sent". They pointed to the "mysterious" chemistry that indicates "high energy" (if you are going to reanimate a body, it isn't clear why you'd need "intense energy" to do it--if you're a magic guy like God you could even use a Star Trek "transporter" and "beam Him up, Scotty").
Almost everyone accepts that the Shroud is a Medieval forgery (or objet d'art, if you prefer), but Jackson apparently never has.
This story is informative. Experimental results in complex cases (like climate change) always have enough wiggle room so that people can cast doubt on clear evidence, even if they themselves have nothing definitive to back up their alternative explanations.
(The models in the "cloth drape" experiment wore loin clothes, by the way--they're evangelicals, after all.)
 
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