Silent_Water
Tribune
There is probably a general human longing for transcendence, mysticism and philosophy about it, especially in times of a pandemic - even or just here as you can partly see in threads like „Final Curtain“ etc. and therefore, you can see this as an possible futile attempt to raise the level of the discussions here to possibly hitherto unknown heights and widths and I would like to ask you for your thoughts about the examples at the end of this posting which I will mention to explain my doubts in almost everything what human beings every thought about religion. In any case, I would like to find answers which I probably cannot and will not find during my lifetime because much more intelligent people than me did not find them. On the other hand, it might be interesting for you to read this or to make your own comments about your thoughts after this looong prologue:
I sometimes try to summarize many of the - doubtful - statements in logical short forms, which are already often in religious-philosophical forms or other relevant literature on the problem of theodicy (= roughly: God's justification in the face of the extent of suffering in the world).
Since I think many threads here are great – not only because of my contributions - but on the other hand some things I would like to say about my philosophy may not fit into it, I would like to open a thread in which I put the most important statements about the theodicy problem in front.
You will forgive me that I may not reproduce some things without errors, because I am neither a philosopher nor a theologian, but just an interested layman who, however, has dealt a lot with the subject for private reasons.
The main philosophical problem of all reasonable doubters (e.g. the French philosopher Voltaire) with the beginning belief in God - which often makes them atheists - is the following logical contradiction (abbreviated with <->):
The world is based on a 'creation out of chaos' - not, as was usual before, 'out of nothing'.
The difference is that God's power does not, so to speak, force matter to adopt increasingly complex structures, but rather persuades it to do so through trial-and-error attempts. God would therefore have no alternative between persuasion and coercion. All that remains is the 'persuasion' method. In other words: As with a potter, God would be given the properties of the clay material by the natural laws of the universe and would set limits to the potter's work.
More complicated possibilities for resolving the contradiction:
1. The traditional idea of omnipotence in the nature of God in connection with the idea of a real world different from God is contradictory!
In other words: We can only speak of a 'real world' if the beings in this world also have the power to change, otherwise they would only be actors in a predetermined action, in an unreal world. Being real and having power are inseparable from one another. A world in which this possibility does not apply would be inconceivable and unreal for us. An increase in the positive power properties of our world automatically leads to an increase in the negative possibilities!
Another example: omnipotence does not mean that God can do something logically impossible, but that he has the power to do everything that is logically possible.
As early as the Middle Ages, many theologians believed that even God could not create a 'round square' and that this assumption in no way restricted his omnipotence.
<-> Contradiction to 1 .: The value of free will in no way justifies the extent of suffering that free beings have inflicted on one another or can still inflict!
2. God very consciously set a single limit to human freedom: death, which not only limits life, but also the extent of suffering that people can inflict on one another. Richard Swinburne: The Existence of God. Stuttgart 1987, describes death in his book as the `` safety barrier of God '', which at first seems very strange, but in certain respects is absolutely correct.
3. The Soul-Making Theodicy according to John Hick: Evil and the God of Love. London 1988 starts from the assumption that the world is a place of 'soul formation', that is, that from the beginning man is a very imperfect being, which he is yet to become in the eyes of God. The likeness to God would be the goal and destination of human life. Of course, this theory assumes the existence of the soul or consciousness after death. The further development of this soul can only take place in a world in which evil and suffering are also possible. If the theodicy of soul-building is correct, then it would even be the intended meaning of suffering in the world. This theory does not rule out multiple lives or reincarnations. Is that what the Bible does somewhere? Interestingly enough, parts of this soul-making theodicy coincide with research results from surgeons, neurologists and psychiatrists who deal with the `death experiences` and` Out-of-body experiences of clinically dead, but successfully resuscitated patients, accident victims or similar.
You can stand for it however you want, but the fact is that these experiences have common aspects regardless of the culture of the narrator, e.g. `Time stretching effects`,` tunnel sensations`, sudden termination of any pain sensation and a deep feeling of peace - even with war victims in Vietnam.
Of course, these sensations could theoretically also be triggered by the body's own drug substances or hallucinogens, but there are several points that speak against it from a scientific point of view:
1. There is no known substance that, like a light switch when experiencing death, suddenly `switches off` the sensation of pain and when resuscitated 'switches on' again.
2. During brain operations that also included an electroencephalogram, no more brain waves were recorded in such patients at the moment of the death experience, and yet the brain must have burned off a veritable firework of sensations at that moment. Why, if everything is turned off, black, dark and switched off anyway? Nature doesn't waste anything else, does it?
3. In the meantime, due to medical advances, there is sufficient evidence that at the moment of death, consciousness really does seem to separate from the body. Several times after the operation, patients were able to describe in detail which instruments the surgeon had used, even though they were often new designs, which even the surgical colleagues were unknown in appearance.
Okay, this was only partly the prologue to this thread. I will also mention two catastrophes and their effects in different times. I still think there is also a connection between the catastrophy of Lissabon in 1755 and "BDSM" until today in this forum, because up to 1755, the Europeans as a whole lived in the "almost-certainty" that there is a caring God who will punish "wrong-doers" and all their possible perversions, that kings are on their thrones because of the will of God and so on.
But the 1st of November 1755 changed almost everything for all European philosophers and in my opinion was also one out of several reasons for the French Revolution which changed the world completely.
The second catastrophe of which I sometimes have to think about on all Christmas days of 26th December happened on this date 16 years ago. On 26th of December in 2004, I woke up lately because I celebrated with my mother and family the long evening before, switched my radio on at 9 o’clock in the morning because on my favourite radio station of those days, there were usually played the most beautiful love ballads and pop songs during the Christmas holidays. But the first thing I heard were the news that probably for the first time in modern history, a catastrophe had hit half oft he globe and was still not over because giant waves were possibly still crossing the Indian ocean. I really could not believe what I was hearing and seeing the following hours and days.
Compared to other catastrophes, this was the most terrible one not only because of the more than 170.000 Asian victims but even for some European states the worst single catastrophe since WW II because more than 500 Germans - and I knew a friend who lost a relative there - and 500 Swedes died on the 26th of December 2004 in their Christmas holidays in South-East Asia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake_and_tsunami
What I always wondered about is the possibility in warnings before such catastrophes. German news reported from Sri Lanka that many old people, especially women told their families before they had bad dreams in the night before in which their family members were in danger.
Almost all domesticated elephants in Sri Lanka and Thailand were reported to have been tearing at their chains in panic in the night before the tsunami came so that many of their "mahouts" let them run free, watching stunned how the elephants were running up to the nearest hills and mountains, obviously knowing that something would be arriving of which you can only be safer on a higher point in landscape.
Maybe, human beings could more often save their lives if they would have a closer look to their animals and dreams.
But maybe, there are some even stranger kinds of warnings you would not really expect.
For example, on 26th of December, almost all German radio stations were ordered not to play some pop songs or some music which might be regarded as irreverent or impious, for example Spanish, English or German songs about the beauty of holidays on a beach, etc.
But one of them was really one of the most unusual German „surfer songs“ I have ever heard – did you ever hear a German „surfer song“ before (?) - and although I liked it very much before Christmas 2004 and again today, it made and still makes me a bit shiver in my memories because of the rather sad tune, the sound effect like being under water and especially because of the text could partly really be (mis-?)understood as a request for a review on your life short before or in the moment of your death.
Although the music group said later, this song „Die perfekte Welle“ (= The perfect wave) was just made by them for entertainment, it was even for them a strange coincidence that they made it – as far as I know - in the summer of the year 2004 – and I still wonder if this was only and really a strange coincidence or more ... and during the last weeks and months, this song has partly a strange revival because some Germans are still listening to it and thinking about another coincidence because we are also talking in German about the „waves“ of the pandemic.
Text:
Die perfekte Welle – The perfect Wave
Mit jeder Welle kam ein Traum- With every wave came a dream
Träume gehen vorüber - Dreams are passing
Dein Brett ist verstaubt - Your board is dusty
Deine Zweifel schäumen über - Your doubts are overflowing
Hast dein Leben lang gewartet - (You) have waited your whole life
Hast gehofft, dass es sie gibt – (You) hoped it was there
Hast den Glauben fast verloren - Almost lost your faith
Hast dich nicht vom Fleck bewegt - Didn't move from the spot
Jetzt kommt sie langsam auf dich zu - Now she's (= the wave) slowly coming towards you
Das Wasser schlägt dir ins Gesicht - The water hits you in the face
Siehst dein Leben wie ein Film - See your life like in a movie
Du kannst nicht glauben, dass sie bricht - You cannot believe that she (= the wave) is breaking
Das ist die perfekte Welle – This is the perfect wave
Das ist der perfekte Tag - This is the perfect day
Lass dich einfach von ihr tragen - Just let her carry you
Denk am besten gar nicht nach - It's the best not to think about it
Das ist die perfekte Welle
Das ist der perfekte Tag
Es gibt mehr als du weißt - There is more than you will ever know
Es gibt mehr als du sagst - There is more than you (can) say
Stellst dich in den Sturm und schreist: - Standing in the storm and crying:
Ich bin hier, ich bin frei - I am here, I am free
Alles was ich will ist Zeit - all I want is time
Ich bin hier, ich bin frei - I am here, I am free
Deine Hände sind schon taub - Your hands are already numb
Hast Salz in deinen Augen – (You) got salt in your eyes
Zwischen Tränen und Staub - Between tears and dust
Fällt es schwer noch dran zu glauben - It's hard to believe (in anything?)
Hast dein Leben lang gewartet – (You) have waited your life
Hast die Wellen nie gezählt - Never counted the waves
Das ist die perfekte Welle – This is the perfect wave
Das ist der perfekte Tag dafür - This is the perfect day for this
I sometimes try to summarize many of the - doubtful - statements in logical short forms, which are already often in religious-philosophical forms or other relevant literature on the problem of theodicy (= roughly: God's justification in the face of the extent of suffering in the world).
Since I think many threads here are great – not only because of my contributions - but on the other hand some things I would like to say about my philosophy may not fit into it, I would like to open a thread in which I put the most important statements about the theodicy problem in front.
You will forgive me that I may not reproduce some things without errors, because I am neither a philosopher nor a theologian, but just an interested layman who, however, has dealt a lot with the subject for private reasons.
The main philosophical problem of all reasonable doubters (e.g. the French philosopher Voltaire) with the beginning belief in God - which often makes them atheists - is the following logical contradiction (abbreviated with <->):
- God is omnipotent and good; he can and wants to prevent human suffering. <-> There is suffering - a lot of it!
- The simplest philosophical-theoretical possibilities for resolving the contradiction:
- 1. Assumption: God is not omnipotent.
- 2. Assumption: God is not good.
- 3. Abandonment of belief in God.
The world is based on a 'creation out of chaos' - not, as was usual before, 'out of nothing'.
The difference is that God's power does not, so to speak, force matter to adopt increasingly complex structures, but rather persuades it to do so through trial-and-error attempts. God would therefore have no alternative between persuasion and coercion. All that remains is the 'persuasion' method. In other words: As with a potter, God would be given the properties of the clay material by the natural laws of the universe and would set limits to the potter's work.
More complicated possibilities for resolving the contradiction:
1. The traditional idea of omnipotence in the nature of God in connection with the idea of a real world different from God is contradictory!
In other words: We can only speak of a 'real world' if the beings in this world also have the power to change, otherwise they would only be actors in a predetermined action, in an unreal world. Being real and having power are inseparable from one another. A world in which this possibility does not apply would be inconceivable and unreal for us. An increase in the positive power properties of our world automatically leads to an increase in the negative possibilities!
Another example: omnipotence does not mean that God can do something logically impossible, but that he has the power to do everything that is logically possible.
As early as the Middle Ages, many theologians believed that even God could not create a 'round square' and that this assumption in no way restricted his omnipotence.
<-> Contradiction to 1 .: The value of free will in no way justifies the extent of suffering that free beings have inflicted on one another or can still inflict!
2. God very consciously set a single limit to human freedom: death, which not only limits life, but also the extent of suffering that people can inflict on one another. Richard Swinburne: The Existence of God. Stuttgart 1987, describes death in his book as the `` safety barrier of God '', which at first seems very strange, but in certain respects is absolutely correct.
3. The Soul-Making Theodicy according to John Hick: Evil and the God of Love. London 1988 starts from the assumption that the world is a place of 'soul formation', that is, that from the beginning man is a very imperfect being, which he is yet to become in the eyes of God. The likeness to God would be the goal and destination of human life. Of course, this theory assumes the existence of the soul or consciousness after death. The further development of this soul can only take place in a world in which evil and suffering are also possible. If the theodicy of soul-building is correct, then it would even be the intended meaning of suffering in the world. This theory does not rule out multiple lives or reincarnations. Is that what the Bible does somewhere? Interestingly enough, parts of this soul-making theodicy coincide with research results from surgeons, neurologists and psychiatrists who deal with the `death experiences` and` Out-of-body experiences of clinically dead, but successfully resuscitated patients, accident victims or similar.
You can stand for it however you want, but the fact is that these experiences have common aspects regardless of the culture of the narrator, e.g. `Time stretching effects`,` tunnel sensations`, sudden termination of any pain sensation and a deep feeling of peace - even with war victims in Vietnam.
Of course, these sensations could theoretically also be triggered by the body's own drug substances or hallucinogens, but there are several points that speak against it from a scientific point of view:
1. There is no known substance that, like a light switch when experiencing death, suddenly `switches off` the sensation of pain and when resuscitated 'switches on' again.
2. During brain operations that also included an electroencephalogram, no more brain waves were recorded in such patients at the moment of the death experience, and yet the brain must have burned off a veritable firework of sensations at that moment. Why, if everything is turned off, black, dark and switched off anyway? Nature doesn't waste anything else, does it?
3. In the meantime, due to medical advances, there is sufficient evidence that at the moment of death, consciousness really does seem to separate from the body. Several times after the operation, patients were able to describe in detail which instruments the surgeon had used, even though they were often new designs, which even the surgical colleagues were unknown in appearance.
Okay, this was only partly the prologue to this thread. I will also mention two catastrophes and their effects in different times. I still think there is also a connection between the catastrophy of Lissabon in 1755 and "BDSM" until today in this forum, because up to 1755, the Europeans as a whole lived in the "almost-certainty" that there is a caring God who will punish "wrong-doers" and all their possible perversions, that kings are on their thrones because of the will of God and so on.
But the 1st of November 1755 changed almost everything for all European philosophers and in my opinion was also one out of several reasons for the French Revolution which changed the world completely.
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, the most famous German writer and poet of his time, was so influenced by the descriptions of this catastrophe he heard in his childhood that he wrote in his autobiography 50 years later he was sad because he could not find any plausible explanatory connection for his childhood’s belief in God and this catastrophe.
- In any case, the earthquake which caused this catastrophe was probably the most powerful in Europe during the last 1000 years because even far away in Germany and Finland, there were reported unusual tremblings of buildings and motions oft he surfaces of lakes which were suddenly higher at one shore than on the other and no one could explain until the first news from Portugal arrived some time later.
- Goethe’s quotation here:
- https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdbeben_von_Lissabon_1755
- English description of the catastrophe here:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake
- Lisbon was on that morning hit by an „almost perfect natural“ and incredibly planned looking overkill. It was "All-Saints-Day" ...
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints'_Day
- ... and the churches were full with faithful believers – and Lisbon in those times was still one oft he most religious and richest cities oft he European civilisation – when between 9.40 and 9.50 o'clock the earth shook so much that almost all churches and bigger houses collapsed completely, burying all the people in the churches, killing ten-thousands of inhabitants at once. Others in wooden houses died in the sudden fires which mostly were caused by broken oil lamps and candles. People who managed to get to the big free places at the harbor were hit about half an hour later by a tsunami of about 3 metres height. At least 25.000 people were killed during the first 30 minutes but estimates of all victims go up to more than 100.000 persons during the following 5 days. Ironically enough, the people in the churches were killed but the „Alfama“ hill with Lisbon’s „red-light-district“ where most brothels and lowest classes of Lisbon were situated, was the least damaged hill of Lisbon.
- The king and his nearest noblesse who survived by pure coincidence because one of his daughters wished to stay over the celebration day in one oft he royal parks outside oft he city - tried to keep order by martial law but there were all kinds of imaginable crimes and also proven cases of cannibalism during the following four weeks.
- Strange and terrible coincidences made the catastrophe even worse: The „Hospital Real de Todos os Santos“ (= the Royal All-Saints-Hospital) burned down in a short time in a conflagration which killed hundreds of patients whereas the walls of prisons came tumbling down, freeing hundreds of dangerous and mentally insane criminals
- The reports from Lissabon shocked the whole of Europe and philosophers like Voltaire wrote sad and satirical stories like "Candide" in which they tried to show that statements like the one of the German philosopher Leibniz who said we would be living "in the best of all possible worlds" are complete nonsense.
- A feeling of uncertainty came across Europe: God might not really exist or mankind does not interest him any more. And if God does not exist, what is the justification of kings to govern their nations rather bad than good? And moreover, if there is no one anymore who will punish crimes after life, why could one not commit any crime - also and especially sexual crimes - one would like to commit?
- And here, it is interesting that Voltaire was a personal friend of the father of that Marquis de Sade, who must have known Voltaire and also Montesquieu because they were guests in the palace of the noble family of the de Sades, when this man, after whom "Sadism" has its name until today, was also there taking part in or at least hearing the philosophical discussions between his father and Voltaire - but probably taking his own and false conclusions for his own dark sexual desires:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade
- So, this special catastrophy of 1755 influenced much more of our history up to now and also here in this forum than most of us might think, I would say.
The second catastrophe of which I sometimes have to think about on all Christmas days of 26th December happened on this date 16 years ago. On 26th of December in 2004, I woke up lately because I celebrated with my mother and family the long evening before, switched my radio on at 9 o’clock in the morning because on my favourite radio station of those days, there were usually played the most beautiful love ballads and pop songs during the Christmas holidays. But the first thing I heard were the news that probably for the first time in modern history, a catastrophe had hit half oft he globe and was still not over because giant waves were possibly still crossing the Indian ocean. I really could not believe what I was hearing and seeing the following hours and days.
Compared to other catastrophes, this was the most terrible one not only because of the more than 170.000 Asian victims but even for some European states the worst single catastrophe since WW II because more than 500 Germans - and I knew a friend who lost a relative there - and 500 Swedes died on the 26th of December 2004 in their Christmas holidays in South-East Asia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake_and_tsunami
What I always wondered about is the possibility in warnings before such catastrophes. German news reported from Sri Lanka that many old people, especially women told their families before they had bad dreams in the night before in which their family members were in danger.
Almost all domesticated elephants in Sri Lanka and Thailand were reported to have been tearing at their chains in panic in the night before the tsunami came so that many of their "mahouts" let them run free, watching stunned how the elephants were running up to the nearest hills and mountains, obviously knowing that something would be arriving of which you can only be safer on a higher point in landscape.
Maybe, human beings could more often save their lives if they would have a closer look to their animals and dreams.
But maybe, there are some even stranger kinds of warnings you would not really expect.
For example, on 26th of December, almost all German radio stations were ordered not to play some pop songs or some music which might be regarded as irreverent or impious, for example Spanish, English or German songs about the beauty of holidays on a beach, etc.
But one of them was really one of the most unusual German „surfer songs“ I have ever heard – did you ever hear a German „surfer song“ before (?) - and although I liked it very much before Christmas 2004 and again today, it made and still makes me a bit shiver in my memories because of the rather sad tune, the sound effect like being under water and especially because of the text could partly really be (mis-?)understood as a request for a review on your life short before or in the moment of your death.
Although the music group said later, this song „Die perfekte Welle“ (= The perfect wave) was just made by them for entertainment, it was even for them a strange coincidence that they made it – as far as I know - in the summer of the year 2004 – and I still wonder if this was only and really a strange coincidence or more ... and during the last weeks and months, this song has partly a strange revival because some Germans are still listening to it and thinking about another coincidence because we are also talking in German about the „waves“ of the pandemic.
Text:
Die perfekte Welle – The perfect Wave
Mit jeder Welle kam ein Traum- With every wave came a dream
Träume gehen vorüber - Dreams are passing
Dein Brett ist verstaubt - Your board is dusty
Deine Zweifel schäumen über - Your doubts are overflowing
Hast dein Leben lang gewartet - (You) have waited your whole life
Hast gehofft, dass es sie gibt – (You) hoped it was there
Hast den Glauben fast verloren - Almost lost your faith
Hast dich nicht vom Fleck bewegt - Didn't move from the spot
Jetzt kommt sie langsam auf dich zu - Now she's (= the wave) slowly coming towards you
Das Wasser schlägt dir ins Gesicht - The water hits you in the face
Siehst dein Leben wie ein Film - See your life like in a movie
Du kannst nicht glauben, dass sie bricht - You cannot believe that she (= the wave) is breaking
Das ist die perfekte Welle – This is the perfect wave
Das ist der perfekte Tag - This is the perfect day
Lass dich einfach von ihr tragen - Just let her carry you
Denk am besten gar nicht nach - It's the best not to think about it
Das ist die perfekte Welle
Das ist der perfekte Tag
Es gibt mehr als du weißt - There is more than you will ever know
Es gibt mehr als du sagst - There is more than you (can) say
Stellst dich in den Sturm und schreist: - Standing in the storm and crying:
Ich bin hier, ich bin frei - I am here, I am free
Alles was ich will ist Zeit - all I want is time
Ich bin hier, ich bin frei - I am here, I am free
Deine Hände sind schon taub - Your hands are already numb
Hast Salz in deinen Augen – (You) got salt in your eyes
Zwischen Tränen und Staub - Between tears and dust
Fällt es schwer noch dran zu glauben - It's hard to believe (in anything?)
Hast dein Leben lang gewartet – (You) have waited your life
Hast die Wellen nie gezählt - Never counted the waves
Das ist die perfekte Welle – This is the perfect wave
Das ist der perfekte Tag dafür - This is the perfect day for this
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