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A Philosophical Thread about Good & Evil - Catastrophes, Coincidences & Theodicy

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It is really hard for me to lead a very sincere and scientific discussion here because you all are so terribly funny, childish and fixated on sex ...

I LOVE YOU ALL !!! :loveyou::dancing::applaudit:

But I am still looking for the cat ... or something that looks like a cat ... and "I'll be back" with some more examples when I have had my breakfast ....
 
It is really hard for me to lead a very sincere and scientific discussion here because you all are so terribly funny, childish and fixated on sex ...

I LOVE YOU ALL !!! :loveyou::dancing::applaudit:

But I am still looking for the cat ... or something that looks like a cat ... and "I'll be back" with some more examples when I have had my breakfast ....
This thread has evolved unexpectedly.. perhaps its Creator needs to lay down some commandments.. :confused: or perhaps a good catastrophe would do the trick, wiping out all posters except one or two pure and blameless ones :doh:
 
It is really hard for me to lead a very sincere and scientific discussion here because you all are so terribly funny, childish and fixated on sex ...

I LOVE YOU ALL !!! :loveyou::dancing::applaudit:

But I am still looking for the cat ... or something that looks like a cat ... and "I'll be back" with some more examples when I have had my breakfast ....
I love you too. Nowhere else can find such diverse and diametrically opposed conversations. I hope it's not Schrödinger's cat
 
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I want to tell about my vision of the phenomenon of life.

I apologize in advance, I will use ready-made text fragments, as my knowledge of English will not allow me to accurately give the idea.

"Entropy".
Part of the inner energy of the closed system or the energy aggregate of the universe that cannot be used, in particular cannot pass or be converted into mechanical work. The most distinct effect of entropy is seen in the example of thermodynamic processes. So, heat never completely goes into mechanical work,transforming into etc. types of energy. It is noteworthy that in reversible processes, the value of entropy remains unchanged, while irreversible,on the contrary, steadily increases, and this increase is due to the reduction of mechanical energy. Consequently, all the many irreversible processes that occur in nature are accompanied by a decrease in mechanical energy, which should eventually lead to universal paralysis, or, in other words, "heat death of the universe". But such a conclusion is valid only in the case of postulated totalitarianism of the universe as a closed empirical given. Christ. theologians, based on entropy, talked about the limb of the world, using it as proof of God's existence.

Entropy and life "Negative entropy" was introduced by Erwin Schrödinger in his 1944 popular-science book What is Life?

Erwin Schrödinger explains how a living system exports entropy to keep its own entropy low. Using the term negentropy, he could express his idea succinctly: a living system imports negentropy for self-preservation:

“A living organism continuously increases its entropy, or, otherwise, produces positive entropy and, thus, approaches a dangerous state of maximum entropy, which is death. He can avoid this state, that is, remain alive, only by constantly extracting negative entropy from his environment. Negative entropy is what the body eats. Or, to put it less paradoxically, what is essential in metabolism is that the body manages to free itself of all the entropy it has to produce while it is alive. "

@montycrusto wrote wonderfully about crystallization and other forms of self-organization, which also come with a decrease of entropy.

About crystals. The stability of molecules and crystals is due to the same principles and a molecule might be called "the germ of a solid." On the other hand, an amorphous solid, without crystalline structure, should be regarded as a liquid with a very high viscosity. Schrödinger believes the heredity material to be a molecule, which unlike a crystal does not repeat itself. He calls this an aperiodic crystal. Its aperiodic nature allows it to encode an almost infinite number of possibilities with a small number of atoms. He finally compares this picture with the known facts and finds it in accordance with them.

Schrödinger's "paradox"

In a world governed by the second law of thermodynamics, all isolated systems are expected to approach a state of maximum disorder. Since life approaches and maintains a highly ordered state, some argue that this seems to violate the aforementioned second law, implying that there is a paradox. However, since the biosphere is not an isolated system, there is no paradox. The increase of order inside an organism is more than paid for by an increase in disorder outside this organism by the loss of heat into the environment. By this mechanism, the second law is obeyed, and life maintains a highly ordered state, which it sustains by causing a net increase in disorder in the Universe. In order to increase the complexity on Earth—as life does—free energy is needed and in this case is provided by the Sun.

It turns out that life "lives" at the expense of the Universe, increasing its measure of chaos. The Universe can rightfully consider us a parasite, a "cancer". :devil:
 
I want to tell about my vision of the phenomenon of life.

I apologize in advance, I will use ready-made text fragments, as my knowledge of English will not allow me to accurately give the idea.

"Entropy".
Part of the inner energy of the closed system or the energy aggregate of the universe that cannot be used, in particular cannot pass or be converted into mechanical work. The most distinct effect of entropy is seen in the example of thermodynamic processes. So, heat never completely goes into mechanical work,transforming into etc. types of energy. It is noteworthy that in reversible processes, the value of entropy remains unchanged, while irreversible,on the contrary, steadily increases, and this increase is due to the reduction of mechanical energy. Consequently, all the many irreversible processes that occur in nature are accompanied by a decrease in mechanical energy, which should eventually lead to universal paralysis, or, in other words, "heat death of the universe". But such a conclusion is valid only in the case of postulated totalitarianism of the universe as a closed empirical given. Christ. theologians, based on entropy, talked about the limb of the world, using it as proof of God's existence.

Entropy and life "Negative entropy" was introduced by Erwin Schrödinger in his 1944 popular-science book What is Life?

Erwin Schrödinger explains how a living system exports entropy to keep its own entropy low. Using the term negentropy, he could express his idea succinctly: a living system imports negentropy for self-preservation:

“A living organism continuously increases its entropy, or, otherwise, produces positive entropy and, thus, approaches a dangerous state of maximum entropy, which is death. He can avoid this state, that is, remain alive, only by constantly extracting negative entropy from his environment. Negative entropy is what the body eats. Or, to put it less paradoxically, what is essential in metabolism is that the body manages to free itself of all the entropy it has to produce while it is alive. "

@montycrusto wrote wonderfully about crystallization and other forms of self-organization, which also come with a decrease of entropy.

About crystals. The stability of molecules and crystals is due to the same principles and a molecule might be called "the germ of a solid." On the other hand, an amorphous solid, without crystalline structure, should be regarded as a liquid with a very high viscosity. Schrödinger believes the heredity material to be a molecule, which unlike a crystal does not repeat itself. He calls this an aperiodic crystal. Its aperiodic nature allows it to encode an almost infinite number of possibilities with a small number of atoms. He finally compares this picture with the known facts and finds it in accordance with them.

Schrödinger's "paradox"

In a world governed by the second law of thermodynamics, all isolated systems are expected to approach a state of maximum disorder. Since life approaches and maintains a highly ordered state, some argue that this seems to violate the aforementioned second law, implying that there is a paradox. However, since the biosphere is not an isolated system, there is no paradox. The increase of order inside an organism is more than paid for by an increase in disorder outside this organism by the loss of heat into the environment. By this mechanism, the second law is obeyed, and life maintains a highly ordered state, which it sustains by causing a net increase in disorder in the Universe. In order to increase the complexity on Earth—as life does—free energy is needed and in this case is provided by the Sun.

It turns out that life "lives" at the expense of the Universe, increasing its measure of chaos. The Universe can rightfully consider us a parasite, a "cancer". :devil:
Being Physical Chemist myself, I see it a little different, despite it is true that the strict entropy only holds for closed systems, we, as open systems, are dead run at the end also, so approximatively the second law of thermodynamics also holds. One of the most hated evangelical priest I know also compares young and old females, to show the entropy... We naturally would never do such a thing! And considering, what follows from that nature law for government, one would conclude that any regulation (eg. is a containment) would stop the negentropy production and therefore as few laws should be and as small as possible the government should be.
 
Everything depends on the idea of the infinity of the Universe, so that the laws of thermodynamics, based on the study of objects of finite dimensions, are not applicable to the Universe in principle. M. Planck on this occasion noted: "it Hardly makes sense to talk about the energy or entropy of the world, because such quantities are not amenable to precise definition»

Again a question of faith. Either the Universe is infinite or not. Who knows? I don't.
 
It turns out that life "lives" at the expense of the Universe, increasing its measure of chaos. The Universe can rightfully consider us a parasite, a "cancer". :devil:

The universe is full of negentropy and temporarily organized structures, this seems to be the normal state of things. Or are you suggesting that only chaos should exist? Would you also call structures like star systems 'cancers'? - It's a strange conclusion.
 
The universe is full of negentropy and temporarily organized structures, this seems to be the normal state of things. Or are you suggesting that only chaos should exist? Would you also call structures like star systems 'cancers'? - It's a strange conclusion.
I think it is clear it tends to chaos.... you could argue when or why the universe is now in ordered but decaying state. One can naturally think of cycles, say some phases entropy is negativ, other phases it is positive.
 
I think it is clear it tends to chaos.... you could argue when or why the universe is now in ordered but decaying state. One can naturally think of cycles, say some phases entropy is negativ, other phases it is positive.
Yes, but why would something that falls within the scope of the normal machinations of the universe be considered somehow an aberration to it?

As if it should work in some way other than what it actually does?
 
The universe is full of negentropy and temporarily organized structures, this seems to be the normal state of things. Or are you suggesting that only chaos should exist? Would you also call structures like star systems 'cancers'? - It's a strange conclusion.
I avoid value judgments. This is an analogy, and I was only talking about living matter. It"s Like the duck test : "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."
If continue with analogies: Stars and planets: unlikely, but objects like a black hole: maybe
 
I avoid value judgments. This is an analogy, and I was only talking about living matter. It"s Like the duck test : "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."
If continue with analogies: Stars and planets: unlikely, but objects like a black hole: maybe
Alright, so in the absence of biases and value judgements, why would the configuration of particles into a structured system that happens to be living be so much different from any other structured system of particle configurations, when they have negentropy characteristic in common?

I don't see why one or the other would necessarily be structurally exceptional.
 
Yes, but why would something that falls within the scope of the normal machinations of the universe be considered somehow an aberration to it?
Why you call living things normal? Mostly they are dead! If believing the standard science then earth decays since 4.5 billion of years and you live for only 100 years, or less then you are dead (means unordered) again. If you are say a creationist, then God created you, after that you are again following the second law of thermodynamics and are soon dead again (after maximum 120 years according to genesis), so all is okay for the second law... And do not forget, when dead you are also not a closed system... Where is your negentropy?
 
Why you call living things normal? Mostly they are dead! If believing the standard science then earth decays since 4.5 billion of years and you live for only 100 years, or less then you are dead (means unordered) again. If you are say a creationist, then God created you, after that you are again following the second law of thermodynamics and are soon dead again (after maximum 120 years according to genesis), so all is okay for the second law... And do not forget, when dead you are also not a closed system... Where is your negentropy?
If we paraphrase the argument, you seem to be saying that because the universe tends toward entropy and chaos, that anything that deviates from that is aberrant.

Whereas I would say that anything that deviates from the way that the universe works in practice is aberrant.

Why are living things normal? Because they exist.

Whether living things exist because of mathematics scaled to infinity or near infinity, or whether they exist because life is a common structure, I can't say. But, since life was manifested in this universe, for whatever reason, then it's a permutation resulting from the characteristics that precipitated it. - It was a possible structure that collapsed to reality, and to my perspective, that makes it as normal as everything else.
 
Whether living things exist because of mathematics scaled to infinity or near infinity, or whether they exist because life is a common structure, I can't say. But, since life was manifested in this universe, for whatever reason, then it's a permutation resulting from the characteristics that precipitated it. - It was a possible structure that collapsed to reality, and to my perspective, that makes it as normal as everything else.
Yes normal but improbable! When I use "normal" I also mean probable, only to exist is not important......
 
Yes normal but improbable! When I use "normal" I also mean probable, only to exist is not important......
How do you know it's improbable?

If there's a trillion to one chance, and you take that chance 1 trillion times, then it becomes probable. If you take that chance 100 trillion times, then it becomes very probable, and if you take it 1000000 trillion times, the odds against it happening are almost infinitesimal.

Probability will mean less and less the further you can scale beyond the chance of occurrence. And probability means absolutely nothing if you can scale to infinity mathematically.

So on the face of it, a trillion to one sounds like small odds, but it might in fact be almost certain, depending on how many times you can roll the dice.
 
How do you know it's improbable?
There are many theories about it, probably I should quote Oparin and Oro, you find some of the citations here https://www.researchgate.net/public...e_origin_and_early_evolution_of_life_on_earth and nearly everywhere in the newer evolution theory literature, subsection molecular evolution theory. It can be debated how this "improbable structures" can be generated with evolution theory. Quite an interesting topic I think. Sorry not to be the(!) expert on that field, just touched it at the border.
 
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