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Crucifixion Is Horribly Violent – We Must Confront Its Reality Head On

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Magister Australis
Jonathan Jones has written an interesting comment in today's Guardian on the brutality of crucifixion and why, given the lack of exposure the modern western world has to death, we should confront the imagery of Christ's crucifixion head on.

Jones reports that Glasgow theology students have been warned about brutal crucifixion images but then goes on to explain why, in his opinion, such paintings remind us of the grisly truth about death.

https://www.theguardian.com/artandd...images-death-paintings?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The article has a number of links worth following and a couple of images of old paintings.

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It appears that nobody opted out of the course, even with the "warnings". I wonder how many of them are potential new CF members. :D
I note also, with slight amusement, that the article tries to make this idea of a violent, disturbing crucifixion into a sort of discussion point, whereas it doesn't even go into some of the the details we explore on a day-to-day basis in our CF literature and art.

Amusement aside, while this gruesome, violent crux is all very well in fantasy or for historical interest, it always ends up skirting the realm of a kind of BDSM, torture, and death eroticism, if not ending up there head-on. In that regard, I always find an overly realistic and sensationalist depiction of the crucifixion in theology or in the context of a church service a bit awkward.

I am not surprised that young 20-something theology students did not drop the class. Crux eroticism as theology would be too good to pass up. How many of them will fantasize about a female crucifixion while in the class we will probably never know.
 
Barbaria1 said:
How many of them will fantasize about a female crucifixion while in the class we will probably never know.

I have to think it would be most of them ... :rolleyes:
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Knowing my own fantasies on this topic, I wonder how I would feel in that class. Knowing (or certain I knew) that the professor -- when looking at me sitting in my chair, with legs crossed but showing a bit of smooth thigh -- was seeing my naked body stretched out and nailed. Or that quiet, nerdy guy staring at me rather intently? Was he, at that moment, in his own mind, swinging a hammer towards a nail positioned at my wrist.:eek:

Oh dear! How could they even imagine transferring the horrors in those painting to my naked body! Would I blush at the thought, or would l secretly revel in it?

Oh my! I guess you and I, Barb, would be the centers of attention in such a class, would we not?
 
Marcella said:
...Would I blush at the thought, or would l secretly revel in it?

Oh my! I guess you and I, Barb, would be the centers of attention in such a class, would we not?
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If you blush during the class, you will almost certainly become the centre of attention, and all sorts of fantasies will be evoked. :devil:
 
Marcella said:
Knowing my own fantasies on this topic, I wonder how I would feel in that class. Knowing (or certain I knew) that the professor -- when looking at me sitting in my chair, with legs crossed but showing a bit of smooth thigh -- was seeing my naked body stretched out and nailed. Or that quiet, nerdy guy staring at me rather intently? Was he, at that moment, in his own mind, swinging a hammer towards a nail positioned at my wrist.:eek:

Oh dear! How could they even imagine transferring the horrors in those painting to my naked body! Would I blush at the thought, or would l secretly revel in it?

Oh my! I guess you and I, Barb, would be the centers of attention in such a class, would we not?
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Jollyrei said:
If you blush during the class, you will almost certainly become the centre of attention, and all sorts of fantasies will be evoked. :devil:
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How naive I was in my youth to think that only I had those thoughts when viewing images of Chtist's crucifixion. Or to think that male or even female students might have been imagining me on that cross when they looked in my direction. Did I think that of them? We'll perhaps I may have imagined a girl or two up their on crosses with me.

Yes Marcella, you and just might have been just as you suggest above. And, yes Jolly blushing could have been ... shall we say quite possibly"fatal" if not just arousing.
 
I can agree with all of you ...
But, what are our motivations to be here and to deeply wish nailed to a cross ?
Is it only our desire to be showed, like a star , to many men (mainly) , in different poses, but generally erotical ...?
In reading the comments about crucified women, I'm always interpellated by the fact that it's often (only ?) our facial expression which is put in first, whatever the level of blood showed in the pic ...
So, is it only a question of eroticism for us, or are we ready ( and prefering) to show ourselves in huge sufferings, with a bloody body and much realistic towards the reality ?
For me, I'm not really fixed : it depends of my moods ...Sometimes, I like to be harshly tortured, till the death ... somtimes, I'm soft and privileging the artistic side ...
I should be interested by your comments ... ;)
 
Yes I saw this too this morning PP but you have the privilege of a life of leisure and are able to post on here before I can!
Trigger warnings are becoming quite a self parody really. Warning: ancient forms of bloody execution may be upsetting. Really?

As for fantasies in that class, they can work both ways. I'm sure a lot of the young men would be tempted to see their female classmates up there on a cross, and at least some of those girls would wonder what is would be like to be there. But I think some of those boys may also wonder. The images before them are male, after all. Some of those young men may well see themselves as that suffering figure, stretched out helplessly in front of their female classmates.

A good time could be had by all, I think :)

Barbaria1 said:
Yes Marcella, you and just might have been just as you suggest above. And, yes Jolly blushing could have been ... shall we say quite possibly"fatal" if not just arousing.
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Maybe that lecturer is going to invite you both to stay late for some extra "tuition" on the subject, Barb.

messaline said:
I can agree with all of you ...
But, what are our motivations to be here and to deeply wish nailed to a cross ?
Is it only our desire to be showed, like a star , to many men (mainly) , in different poses, but generally erotical ...?
In reading the comments about crucified women, I'm always interpellated by the fact that it's often (only ?) our facial expression which is put in first, whatever the level of blood showed in the pic ...
So, is it only a question of eroticism for us, or are we ready ( and prefering) to show ourselves in huge sufferings, with a bloody body and much realistic towards the reality ?
For me, I'm not really fixed : it depends of my moods ...Sometimes, I like to be harshly tortured, till the death ... somtimes, I'm soft and privileging the artistic side ...
I should be interested by your comments ... ;)
Click to expand...

I like to see beauty rather than mutilation, but some amount of suffering can certainly enhance that beauty. A woman such as you Messa, offering herself in pain and love, transcending mere punishment - a beautiful thing to see.
 
We only see what our eyes want to see...

As i said earlier. Crux is just a frame to woman's beauty.

Of course, IRL crucifixion is terrìble. But we can improve it... Depict it without gore, mutilation and other things. Not like quoom, zerns and other devastators... Like SJ do
Try to find erotic subsets...
 
messaline said:
I can agree with all of you ...
But, what are our motivations to be here and to deeply wish nailed to a cross ?
Is it only our desire to be showed, like a star , to many men (mainly) , in different poses, but generally erotical ...?
In reading the comments about crucified women, I'm always interpellated by the fact that it's often (only ?) our facial expression which is put in first, whatever the level of blood showed in the pic ...
So, is it only a question of eroticism for us, or are we ready ( and prefering) to show ourselves in huge sufferings, with a bloody body and much realistic towards the reality ?
For me, I'm not really fixed : it depends of my moods ...Sometimes, I like to be harshly tortured, till the death ... somtimes, I'm soft and privileging the artistic side ...
I should be interested by your comments ... ;)
Click to expand...
I suppose Messa that "suffering" and "artistic" are two ends along a scale of motivation and pleasure. For me, I think there is always a mixture of the two, to some degree or another .. and the mix may depend on my mood. Torture and suffering are always there for me, because they are so central to the crucifixion ordeal, especially in the customary stages that lead up to the final point of dying on the cross. On the other hand, when I imagine myself going through the ordeal of crucifixion I shy away from acts of extreme mutilation ... I think that is because I want myself and my suffering to be perceived as something of sensuous or erotic beauty, not only for me but for all onlookers. That is a part of the fascination we all feel when we imagine the human body and soul helplessly affixed to the cross. And what about the so-called "dance" ... the agonized twisting and writhing we all must do while on the cross ... it's an act of desperate suffering but also an act of erotic beauty. And what do I make of the fact that I always imagine myself to be under the gaze of onlookers ... who are typically strangers who jeer and revile me, who are aroused by my nudity, the wanton exposure of my intimacies, and by my suffering and humiliation? But I also imagine people among the onlookers whom I know and who may pity me or identify with me. Sometimes I don't want to go it alone, and take pleasure in the idea and image of suffering my crucifixion among one other or among many other fellow sufferers, even lovers, who hang nearby perhaps even close enough for me to almost touch. Multiple or mass crucifixions can become a thing of beauty in my mind ... a vast tableaux of erotic beauty. Humiliation and being observed ... are two powerful elements ... is there not an exhibitionist element in this too? I want to imagine myself exposed, suffering, and erotic in the eyes of others as well as in my image of myself. And there is also the element of helplessness. I cannot avoid or change the course of events. I have been condemned, led to my place of crucifixion, scourged, stripped naked, nailed and raised ... all of that plays out inevitably in my mind .. there is never any going back. Is the unalterable sequence not a thing of beauty in itself? In short, it's all very complicated. The attraction of crucifixion cannot for me, or probably for anyone, be understood and described simply.

Ok enough. These are the rambling thoughts of an insomniac writing at 2:30 am. Go to sleep Barb! Kisses from the cross everyone!
 
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Hasturan said:
We only see what our eyes want to see...

As i said earlier. Crux is just a frame to woman's beauty.

Of course, IRL crucifixion is terrìble. But we can improve it... Depict it without gore, mutilation and other things. Not like quoom, zerns and other devastators... Like SJ do
Try to find erotic subsets...
Click to expand...
But it is not so simple. The Quoom images do capture a kind of stark eroticism as well. It may be a troubling thought, but faced with the brutality of a real crucifixion, the experience of witnessing it might arouse some erotic feelings, as well as horror and sympathy.

I find it interesting that the trigger warning in this class was not so much to chase people away, but because the professor thought they weren't seeing the crucified Christ in a gory enough light.
 
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Barbaria1 said:
How naive I was in my youth to think that only I had those thoughts when viewing images of Chtist's crucifixion. Or to think that male or even female students might have been imagining me on that cross when they looked in my direction. Did I think that of them? We'll perhaps I may have imagined a girl or two up their on crosses with me.

Yes Marcella, you and just might have been just as you suggest above. And, yes Jolly blushing could have been ... shall we say quite possibly"fatal" if not just arousing.
Click to expand...
Madiosi2017-008-barb-cranachl.jpg
 
Art History undergraduates probably see more crucifixions than most Theology students, but probably do not receive a trigger warning. To be fair, the warning relates predominantly to film content, so presumably it will be extended to students of Media Studies, History, Classics, Biology, Psychology, Medicine, and just about every subject which can be risk-assessed.

Several of the article's posted comments are at pains to play down the erotic nature of crucifixion, and whilst it is possible that some of our members do not find it erotic, I suspect that most of us do. Many of us are crux artists, or authors, or both (and some are film makers) and if we derive so much of our creative inspiration, repeatedly, from the subject of crucifixion, I think it would be hard to argue that the past masters catering to the Christian tradition were entirely devoid of the erotic fantasies with which we are so well acquainted. If they were alive today, I expect some of them would be right here with us.

I have commented previously on my conviction that one day our community will become a subject of study on degree courses in Art History and Literature. This site currently receives visitors with limited access and I imagine some of the research students (possibly with Theologians amongst them) have already found and even joined us. If they are looking this way, presumably they have some idea of what to expect - and I hope they will create threads for their dissertations.
 
bobinder said:
Art History undergraduates probably see more crucifixions than most Theology students, but probably do not receive a trigger warning. To be fair, the warning relates predominantly to film content, so presumably it will be extended to students of Media Studies, History, Classics, Biology, Psychology, Medicine, and just about every subject which can be risk-assessed.

Several of the article's posted comments are at pains to play down the erotic nature of crucifixion, and whilst it is possible that some of our members do not find it erotic, I suspect that most of us do. Many of us are crux artists, or authors, or both (and some are film makers) and if we derive so much of our creative inspiration, repeatedly, from the subject of crucifixion, I think it would be hard to argue that the past masters catering to the Christian tradition were entirely devoid of the erotic fantasies with which we are so well acquainted. If they were alive today, I expect some of them would be right here with us.

I have commented previously on my conviction that one day our community will become a subject of study on degree courses in Art History and Literature. This site currently receives visitors with limited access and I imagine some of the research students (possibly with Theologians amongst them) have already found and even joined us. If they are looking this way, presumably they have some idea of what to expect - and I hope they will create threads for their dissertations.
Click to expand...

At the risk of being contrarian (not much of a risk since most of you know I am anyway), I think it's highly speculative to try to say how many people find crucifixion erotic. This site has perhaps a few thousand members, only a subset of whom are active, so while it's tempting to generalize from that, I'm not sure that is valid. I tried to find studies where the question was asked of a representative group and there don't seem to be any. Even for "ordinary" BDSM, the numbers are all over the map. Certainly sales of the "Fifty Shades' books were brisk, but those books are pretty light; no heavier BDSM book has sold outside of niche markets.

I can give my perspective as one of the minority here who doesn't find crucifixion particularly erotic (I don't dislike it and read some stories here that have it and look at some art that does). My reaction is generally that it's interesting if presented well, but it just doesn't turn me on the way a good whipping does, for example. Why is that? Who knows? Can anyone explain why one person finds something erotic and another doesn't? I certainly have seen hundreds of renderings of crucifixion in museums and churches and never got turned on erotically, though most were great art by great artists.

Did those artists find them erotic? Many kept journals and as far as I know they never said they did or did not. Of course that could be because they were ashamed to admit it. Who knows? For Renaissance artists, they painted religious scenes because their patron, the Catholic Church, wanted them. So, I can't infer much from that. As for the modernists, it's a classic subject in western Art, so of course they were interested in it, if only to shock their viewers (like the famous "Piss Christ" that caused a great stir in the 1980s).

As an aside, I recently saw a superb show of photographs by Robert Mapplethorpe, many of them BDSM-themed. There is no doubt he found them erotic, as he was part of the scene and wrote about it quite a bit.

Anyway, as one of the resident non-cruxers I wanted to give my perspective. Thanks for listening.
 
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