Crucifixion Is Horribly Violent – We Must Confront Its Reality Head On

[old slave]

I'll follow up on windar's perspective.

I found this site because I was fascinated by the erotic aspects of girls in captivity, being interrogated and punished, and found Eulalia's The Interrogation And Punishment Centre For Girls.

I then started reading other posts, got frustrated by the thumbnails so became a member, but still just read mainly the BDSM-type stories, a bit perplexed by this 'crux' thing.

But slowly the erotic aspects of a girl on a cross, and the whole build-up that is usually involved, began to make sense, such that crux-related fantasies started to emerge during 'those' dreams.

I've now written four stories all with an element of crux in them.

So don't think, windar, that you're immune to this phenomenon. The drug is just taking a little longer to work in you than for others here.

it just doesn't turn me on the way a good whipping does, for example. Why is that? Who knows?

But a good whipping doesn't turn me on, particularly. Why is that? Who knows?

 

[Barbaria1]

I'll follow up on windar's perspective.

I found this site because I was fascinated by the erotic aspects of girls in captivity, being interrogated and punished, and found Eulalia's The Interrogation And Punishment Centre For Girls.

I then started reading other posts, got frustrated by the thumbnails so became a member, but still just read mainly the BDSM-type stories, a bit perplexed by this 'crux' thing.

But slowly the erotic aspects of a girl on a cross, and the whole build-up that is usually involved, began to make sense, such that crux-related fantasies started to emerge during 'those' dreams.

I've now written four stories all with an element of crux in them.

So don't think, windar, that you're immune to this phenomenon. The drug is just taking a little longer to work in you than for others here.



But a good whipping doesn't turn me on, particularly. Why is that? Who knows?

Yes windar take heed. You will succumb in good time. Patience and diligence wins in the end.

 

[windar]

Yes winder take heed. You will succumb in good time. Patience and diligence wins in the end.

I'll follow up on windar's perspective.

I found this site because I was fascinated by the erotic aspects of girls in captivity, being interrogated and punished, and found Eulalia's The Interrogation And Punishment Centre For Girls.

I then started reading other posts, got frustrated by the thumbnails so became a member, but still just read mainly the BDSM-type stories, a bit perplexed by this 'crux' thing.

But slowly the erotic aspects of a girl on a cross, and the whole build-up that is usually involved, began to make sense, such that crux-related fantasies started to emerge during 'those' dreams.

I've now written four stories all with an element of crux in them.

So don't think, windar, that you're immune to this phenomenon. The drug is just taking a little longer to work in you than for others here.



But a good whipping doesn't turn me on, particularly. Why is that? Who knows?

After last year, I have given up making predictions, especially about the future (to paraphrase Yogi Berra).

I did write one story with a crucifixion scene, as many of you know, though to be fair, Barb wrote the chapter where Ann was nailed to the cross. Could I have written it myself? I guess so, though not nearly as well as Barb did. I confessed to Barb at that time that while I thought it was an absolutely beautifully written scene I didn't find it that erotic. Maybe I should re-read it though.

 

[bobinder]

Anyway, as one of the resident non-cruxers I wanted to give my perspective. Thanks for listening.

A very good point, thank you Windar. I certainly agree that we should respect each others' preferences, and I would not be so over-confident as to quote statistics in support of my deliberately vague speculations. Just because some readers find a crux story erotic does not necessarily imply such an intention by the writer. For example, your 'The Real Historical Female Jesus' works on a number of intriguing and provocative levels before we even consider the crucifixion. Therefore I now freely admit to making a rather rash, false assumption about crux literature (i.e. it does not have to be intrinsically erotic.)

Meanwhile, many of the past masters catering to ecclesiastical demands produced not only crucifixions but flagellation scenes in addition to any number of apparently sadistic tortures suffered by the saints, in an era when portrayal of the nude (or nearly nude) was hard to justify outside the Bible or classical mythology. In short, there is variety in this, and much of it appears to me to be painted with relish. Indeed, I consider my best work to be that in which I have identified with the subject. But such views are necessarily subjective, and please rest assured that no offence is intended.

Hasturan has already made a very valid point about all of this - "We only see what our eyes want to see..." and our work is always open to interpretation, which, to my mind, simply widens its appeal. I hope I was not overlooking the variety of work we have here, after all it seems there is something for everyone, and the quality is generally high. For all these reasons, I remain confident that we shall be discovered collectively as an artistic movement worthy of study (or perhaps we already have been?) We may stand accused of horrible violence, but if our researchers are prepared to confront our reality head-on, they will find a great deal of unconditional love on this forum, and we shall be judged on our merits, which, I am certain, outnumber our demerits.

 

[Barbaria1]

A very good point, thank you Windar. I certainly agree that we should respect each others' preferences, and I would not be so over-confident as to quote statistics in support of my deliberately vague speculations. Just because some readers find a crux story erotic does not necessarily imply such an intention by the writer. For example, your 'The Real Historical Female Jesus' works on a number of intriguing and provocative levels before we even consider the crucifixion. Therefore I now freely admit to making a rather rash, false assumption about crux literature (i.e. it does not have to be intrinsically erotic.)

Meanwhile, many of the past masters catering to ecclesiastical demands produced not only crucifixions but flagellation scenes in addition to any number of apparently sadistic tortures suffered by the saints, in an era when portrayal of the nude (or nearly nude) was hard to justify outside the Bible or classical mythology. In short, there is variety in this, and much of it appears to me to be painted with relish. Indeed, I consider my best work to be that in which I have identified with the subject. But such views are necessarily subjective, and please rest assured that no offence is intended.

Hasturan has already made a very valid point about all of this - "We only see what our eyes want to see..." and our work is always open to interpretation, which, to my mind, simply widens its appeal. I hope I was not overlooking the variety of work we have here, after all it seems there is something for everyone, and the quality is generally high. For all these reasons, I remain confident that we shall be discovered collectively as an artistic movement worthy of study (or perhaps we already have been?) We may stand accused of horrible violence, but if our researchers are prepared to confront our reality head-on, they will find a great deal of unconditional love on this forum, and we shall be judged on our merits, which, I am certain, outnumber our demerits.

Well said! No demerits

 

[windar]

A very good point, thank you Windar. I certainly agree that we should respect each others' preferences, and I would not be so over-confident as to quote statistics in support of my deliberately vague speculations. Just because some readers find a crux story erotic does not necessarily imply such an intention by the writer. For example, your 'The Real Historical Female Jesus' works on a number of intriguing and provocative levels before we even consider the crucifixion. Therefore I now freely admit to making a rather rash, false assumption about crux literature (i.e. it does not have to be intrinsically erotic.)

Meanwhile, many of the past masters catering to ecclesiastical demands produced not only crucifixions but flagellation scenes in addition to any number of apparently sadistic tortures suffered by the saints, in an era when portrayal of the nude (or nearly nude) was hard to justify outside the Bible or classical mythology. In short, there is variety in this, and much of it appears to me to be painted with relish. Indeed, I consider my best work to be that in which I have identified with the subject. But such views are necessarily subjective, and please rest assured that no offence is intended.

Hasturan has already made a very valid point about all of this - "We only see what our eyes want to see..." and our work is always open to interpretation, which, to my mind, simply widens its appeal. I hope I was not overlooking the variety of work we have here, after all it seems there is something for everyone, and the quality is generally high. For all these reasons, I remain confident that we shall be discovered collectively as an artistic movement worthy of study (or perhaps we already have been?) We may stand accused of horrible violence, but if our researchers are prepared to confront our reality head-on, they will find a great deal of unconditional love on this forum, and we shall be judged on our merits, which, I am certain, outnumber our demerits.

Some excellent points, Bob. The artist or writer never knows what the viewer or reader will take from their work. I completely agree with you that there are some great stories and art on here even if you were to remove the erotic element totally. To me the eroticism in "The Real Historical Female Jesus" came from the willingness to bear persecution for one's beliefs. That would have applied even if the persecution were simply to sit in jail (which did actually happen to Ann Lee).

On the subject of eroticism in art from earlier times, I recently saw a fascinating exhibit at a museum near here, called "Nudes from the Prado". The Prado, of course, owns a huge collection of masterworks, many of which depict nudes, often doing fairly innocent things like bathing. The various Kings of Spain who collected these works often found themselves harassed by the Church authorities who wanted the works burned, in many cases. Fortunately for all of us, that didn't happen. Eventually they worked out an arrangement whereby the nudes would be sequestered from the public in "Salas Reservadas", accessible only to select high-minded individuals who could enjoy them in the proper spirit. Among those invited to view the works were, of course, the Bishops of Madrid and other cities in Spain.

 

[messaline]

"We only see what our eyes want to see..." and our work is always open to interpretation, which, to my mind, simply widens its appeal

I agree that ; in fact, we've not all the same tastes in our life and why could it be not also in eroticism ?
I think that each of us do their own eroticism and that nobody can be judged for that ... It's human ...
When I make a manip, I'm often surprised by the manner of which people are viewed it and it's often not in the way that I wanted to show ...
So, it's good to let open a pic or a story , to the free interpretation of different people ...

 

[Eulalia]

A fascinating thread that's taken off while real life and then staff-slave duties
have kept me from finding until I'm nearly too sleepy to contribute.
I suppose my education and some influences on my upbringing were a bit more 'churchy' than is common now,
as I've talked about a few times elsewhere on CF.
I certainly knew all about crucifixion and felt its excitement well before university,
I'd have needed no 'trigger warnings'. And in the rather specialised course I followed,
I was introduced to the literary equivalents of the paintings of Grünewald and the Cranachs,
poems and prose meditations on the gory, violent details of the Passion were indeed an important part
of 'affective' spirituality in the late Middle Ages/ early Renaissance.
I begin to wonder whether Theology students are given 'trigger warnings' before being introduced to the Bible
(which one suspects they may not have read much of!)

The discussion raises many important questions about the ethical and psychological issues raised by CF,
which I certainly wrestle with and I'm sure others do.
The squeamishness and ignorance of the cruel reality of what has gone on and still does go on,
and the anxiety about upsetting or 'offending' young people, do seem to me unhealthy:
university is a place to be challenged, provoked, and - yes - shocked.
I don't say that many of those students will find crucifixion erotic as we do, I don't know,
but I do think that facing up to our own feelings and 'dark side' is healthier than suppressing it,
feeling guilty and anxious. And I don't think enjoying our fantasies here makes us insensitive to suffering in the real world,
rather the contrary, as has been shown by the response of so many active members to Tash's cruel news.

Nice to learn of Old Slave being lured here by my IPCG

 

[Jollyrei]

A fascinating thread that's taken off while real life and then staff-slave duties
have kept me from finding until I'm nearly too sleepy to contribute.
I suppose my education and some influences on my upbringing were a bit more 'churchy' than is common now,
as I've talked about a few times elsewhere on CF.
I certainly knew all about crucifixion and felt its excitement well before university,
I'd have needed no 'trigger warnings'. And in the rather specialised course I followed,
I was introduced to the literary equivalents of the paintings of Grünewald and the Cranachs,
poems and prose meditations on the gory, violent details of the Passion were indeed an important part
of 'affective' spirituality in the late Middle Ages/ early Renaissance.
I begin to wonder whether Theology students are given 'trigger warnings' before being introduced to the Bible
(which one suspects they may not have read much of!)

The discussion raises many important questions about the ethical and psychological issues raised by CF,
which I certainly wrestle with and I'm sure others do.
The squeamishness and ignorance of the cruel reality of what has gone on and still does go on,
and the anxiety about upsetting or 'offending' young people, do seem to me unhealthy:
university is a place to be challenged, provoked, and - yes - shocked.
I don't say that many of those students will find crucifixion erotic as we do, I don't know,
but I do think that facing up to our own feelings and 'dark side' is healthier than suppressing it,
feeling guilty and anxious. And I don't think enjoying our fantasies here makes us insensitive to suffering in the real world,
rather the contrary, as has been shown by the response of so many active members to Tash's cruel news.

Nice to learn of Old Slave being lured here by my IPCG

So, that's you when you're sleepy is it?

I am not particularly concerned with the "trigger warning" trend. I suspect it is something that, over time will be phased out and replaced with something else that some people will also disagree with. For now, its proponents say that the warnings are there to avoid causing trauma to people who have had bad things happen to them in the past and which could cause further psychological trauma. I suspect, in this case, if one were prone to trauma from exposure to ideas of gruesome executions, that one would not sign up for a realistic crucifixion course anyway.

On the subject of eroticism, I don't find the gruesome or gory aspects of torture or crucifixion particularly erotic in and of themselves. While I have certainly made manips featuring people crucified with nails, and some of my stories have dealt with that aspect, the violence of the crucifixion is really there to either show the contrast of the beauty in the sacrificial aspects, or bring out the emotional aspects of the crucifixion. The simple act of nailing a woman to a cross is not erotic for me, but the ideas of aloneness, alienation, humiliation, and peril are exciting. The whole Death and the maiden thing is very interesting to me, both from a philosophical angle, and for my own erotic interests and fantasies.

As to a "churchy" upbringing, and those influences, with the waning influence of the church in most countries, I wonder if that will have any influence on crux fantasies in future generations. I strongly suspect that most of our members here are from a Christian background themselves, or from a country with a Christian heritage and literary tradition.

 

[thehangingtree]

I often bring the 'less pleasant' aspects of an execution in to my stories. Some might think it is for mere 'shock value' but it is more for realism be it a hanging or crucifixion. By its nature an execution is forced untimely death inflicted on the condemned...

Tree

...goodnight all

 

[messaline]

On the subject of eroticism, I don't find the gruesome or gory aspects of torture or crucifixion particularly erotic in and of themselves.

For you, OK , but for her ?
For me, it is , particulary when it's me who is nailed to a cross ; why ? I cant answer this question ... It's like that

 

[phlebas]

I have always had an interest in crux, but it has really come out in the last 20 years or so. I don't personally believe it has to do with my upbringing or cultural background, although I think that it does add flavour. There are so many aspects to crux that I like it goes beyond a Christ fixation thing. It is especially the beauty of the suspended body that attracts me.

I'm with Jolly on the eroticism, he sums up my own feelings pretty well. Beauty, sacrifice, peril, humiliation - powerful stuff.

Bobinder said "For all these reasons, I remain confident that we shall be discovered collectively as an artistic movement worthy of study (or perhaps we already have been?) We may stand accused of horrible violence, but if our researchers are prepared to confront our reality head-on, they will find a great deal of unconditional love on this forum, and we shall be judged on our merits, which, I am certain, outnumber our demerits." This is very interesting. Yes, we are a sensitive and nice bunch, really we are, considering the subject matter. A nice bunch that cares. Are we a subculture worthy of study? Will our crux art become a recognised field one day? Interesting thoughts. Crux imagery becomes more mainstream every day, surely it has lost much of its shock value in mainstream culture?

 

[Ducans]

I can agree with all of you ...
But, what are our motivations to be here and to deeply wish nailed to a cross ?
Is it only our desire to be showed, like a star , to many men (mainly) , in different poses, but generally erotical ...?
In reading the comments about crucified women, I'm always interpellated by the fact that it's often (only ?) our facial expression which is put in first, whatever the level of blood showed in the pic ...
So, is it only a question of eroticism for us, or are we ready ( and prefering) to show ourselves in huge sufferings, with a bloody body and much realistic towards the reality ?
For me, I'm not really fixed : it depends of my moods ...Sometimes, I like to be harshly tortured, till the death ... somtimes, I'm soft and privileging the artistic side ...
I should be interested by your comments ...

Dear Messaline, it's like you entered my brains and express exactly what is inside! You express it on a realistic, nearly poëtic way. I'm glad to have not to hide those feelings inside me, even if I can express them with some sketches, I was always considered as pervert when I suggested my fantasies... Because I'm a female maybe? Well here a sketch expressing a bit this kind words of you!
Hannah

 

[Ducans]

For you, OK , but for her ?
For me, it is , particulary when it's me who is nailed to a cross ; why ? I cant answer this question ... It's like that

Me neither!

 

[windar]

So, that's you when you're sleepy is it?

I am not particularly concerned with the "trigger warning" trend. I suspect it is something that, over time will be phased out and replaced with something else that some people will also disagree with. For now, its proponents say that the warnings are there to avoid causing trauma to people who have had bad things happen to them in the past and which could cause further psychological trauma. I suspect, in this case, if one were prone to trauma from exposure to ideas of gruesome executions, that one would not sign up for a realistic crucifixion course anyway.

On the subject of eroticism, I don't find the gruesome or gory aspects of torture or crucifixion particularly erotic in and of themselves. While I have certainly made manips featuring people crucified with nails, and some of my stories have dealt with that aspect, the violence of the crucifixion is really there to either show the contrast of the beauty in the sacrificial aspects, or bring out the emotional aspects of the crucifixion. The simple act of nailing a woman to a cross is not erotic for me, but the ideas of aloneness, alienation, humiliation, and peril are exciting. The whole Death and the maiden thing is very interesting to me, both from a philosophical angle, and for my own erotic interests and fantasies.

As to a "churchy" upbringing, and those influences, with the waning influence of the church in most countries, I wonder if that will have any influence on crux fantasies in future generations. I strongly suspect that most of our members here are from a Christian background themselves, or from a country with a Christian heritage and literary tradition.

I don't have a real issue with trigger warnings. If the professor were to exempt those who might be disturbed from reading the work, that would be wrong. But saying, "heads up," is no different than movies being rated and doesn't diminish the work of art IMO.

As for being "churchy" I was not raised Christian, but I did grow up in a city with a humongous cross on the highest mountain in town. I also -in public school, no less, in Canada-grew up being required to sing Protestant hymns after O Canada and God Save the Queen, because in those days, all Quebec public schools (in the American, not the British sense) were Catholic or Protestant and Protestant included all non-Catholics (including Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., who outnumbered actual Protestants at my school). But even that failed to elicit a crux interest in me. So, OS, my immunity is pretty strong.

It's interesting, though, because in my lifetime, Quebec went from one of the most Catholic places on earth (certainly in the developed world), where priests told people on Sunday how to vote in the elections to a place where the churches are empty and more couple cohabitate than marry.

 

[messaline]

I'm glad to have not to hide those feelings inside me, even if I can express them with some sketches

Continue, Ducans, it's why we like you !

 

[PhilX]

This site, & Cruxfoundation have got to be of interest to Theology students. Here we discuss openly, with no religious baggage, all aspects of crucifixion, our interests in it are manifold from the erotic to the scholarly.

We have no coyness in describing or speculating what crucifixion might have been like, the ugliness of the torture, the spectator fascination with the naked victims, the possibilities of impalement of the anus or vagina (I doubt that would be discussed at a theology seminar, but I could be wrong). We even have those adding their experience of actually hanging on a cross, some of those suffering nails. We have a vast archive of images to suggest what crucifixion might have been like, Old Master paintings had to reduce the reality to make them acceptable, here we don't as the Crucifixion of Christ is not of that much interest to us.

We discuss the practicalities of how a crucifixion might have been done, such as how a writhing struggling person might have been raised up onto a cross, etc.

The personal psychological interest is noteworthy, was religious education involved? there are accounts of one's erotic reaction or of self role-playing; these I guess are not dealt with much outside these sites.

So I believe what we have here is a mine of information that is gathered by all of us pitching in ideas & experience. It ought to be archived.

 

[Eulalia]

For now, its proponents say that the warnings are there to avoid causing trauma to people who have had bad things happen to them in the past and which could cause further psychological trauma. I suspect, in this case, if one were prone to trauma from exposure to ideas of gruesome executions, that one would not sign up for a realistic crucifixion course anyway.

I wonder how many who come here have experienced trauma/ had bad things happen to them?
I'm not asking that to put any pressure on anyone.
I've mentioned a few times that I had a very bad experience in my early teens,
a few others have told us they've had bad things too, and some have told me of them in private.

A thread where several issues raised here came up earlier - not only ones directly responding to the thread title:
http://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/poll-were-you-raised-catholic.37/

 

[Jollyrei]

I wonder how many who come here have experienced trauma/ had bad things happen to them?
I'm not asking that to put any pressure on anyone.
I've mentioned a few times that I had a very bad experience in my early teens,
a few others have told us they've had bad things too, and some have told me of them in private.

A thread where several issues raised here came up earlier - not only ones directly responding to the thread title:
http://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/poll-were-you-raised-catholic.37/

That's an interesting point. I think the idea of trigger warnings may come from an incomplete understanding of the effects of traumatic or other bad things on people, and a notion that, in order to be mentally healthy, we need to avoid thinking about or experiencing bad things. We here stand in opposition somewhat to that notion, suggesting that it may even be healthy, normal, and helpful to explore the most terrifying and horrific fantasies, and make those thoughts acceptable rather than something to be repressed.

 

[Wragg]

Back in the 60s and 70s crucifixion scenes were less violent. Not non-violent, but a slightly sanitised violence:

I remember watching the 1964 Gospel According to St Matthew by myself when I was quite young:

(Crucifixion at 02:06)

I watched the 1979 'Jesus' movie in the cinema with church friends, and let's say that the crucifixion scene, especially where they pull his robe off, influenced my fantasies.

It didn't take me long to imagine a woman in those scenes.