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I'ld Wish If We Could Discuss About Bdsm...

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messaline

Crucified Amazon
Please, dont hesitate to give your opinion about texts, experiences,feelings and post here yours...;)


To start.....

I want to publish this short text that I found in a blogg of a young french girl,​
and I want to do this text ...Mine....
Marie write...
Beyond the good and the evil...

My body enchains me to the brutality of the world. What are the rules? The emotion precedes the reason,only the emotion can get out the universe of causes and consequences:
"You have not been wise, you shall be punished ... "


According to what criteria? Why? Have I not been wise? What underlies this moral?
There is no disobedience, there is no allegiance, there is no justification! I shall be punished, hit, beaten, whipped, because I have to be it, because it's in my nature, because it's good for me.
Neither causes or consequences, I am whipped because I like it, because it's in my nature to desire that, to wish that...

My body is not for me, there is no need to justify the injury ! Beyond good and evil, beyond the causes and consequences, I am a human being who needs to scream her pain to exist.
Deliver me from evil, roast my skin under the indignities, I am always more standing up in front of the chaos of the world !

My rage is nourished by my wounds...
Merci.....Marie......
 

Eulalia

Poet Laureate
Staff member
Yes, this is a very welcome thread, with a lovely quotation to set us thinking.​
My first thoughts are that - while the actual pain of the whiplash does release something in my body that is fiercely erotic​
(scientific types on the Forums can probably tell me what's going on when that happens, I don't know),​
the thrill is also/ even more in​
1 - anticipation of the pain​
2 - being naked and bound/ shackled​
(not too much, just enough to render me defenceless while still letting me writhe and "dance" to the whip)​
3 - underlying it all, the joy of surrender, self-giving, being at the mercy of/ giving pleasure to, my Master​
 

Fantasmo

Senator
(scientific types on the Forums can probably tell me what's going on when that happens, I don't know),​
the thrill is also/ even more in​
1 - anticipation of the pain​
2 - being naked and bound/ shackled​
(not too much, just enough to render me defenceless while still letting me writhe and "dance" to the whip)​
3 - underlying it all, the joy of surrender, self-giving, being at the mercy of/ giving pleasure to, my Master​
Well, no real science needed here, Eulalia.
What is happening to you: You body is producing Endorphines! Endorphines are an opiate and are causing this rush.
It's somewhat comparable to the adrenaline rush experiences in extreme sports.
Endorphine flow is caused by erotic thrills like "anticipation of erotic pain", "being exposed" etc.
I discussed just yesterday with somebody that often a small coincidence makes people discover endorphines and their addictive effect and is at the root of somebody developing an interest for BDSM.
 

Fantasmo

Senator
"You have not been wise, you shall be punished ... "
According to what criteria? Why? Have I not been wise? What underlies this moral?​
There is no disobedience, there is no allegiance, there is no justification! I shall be punished, hit, beaten, whipped, because I have to be it, because it's in my nature, because it's good for me.​
Neither causes or consequences, I am whipped because I like it, because it's in my nature to desire that, to wish that...​
This is touching a central question of BDSM lifestyle:
"Why is a sub punished"?
There are different answers imho:

1. Play around "following rules / being punished for (deliberately) not abiding to them".
This is a classic and allows for the "hidden communication layer between Sub and Dom" that is so important for sane BDSM.
She "doesn't obey" if she is in need of some more... ;)
Or she comes "confess" some more or less serious "sin" ;)

2. Simply because the sub likes it. Fantasies are enacted ("medieval torture chamber", "crucifixion", etc). While the Dom/sub act acording to their role, a hidden communication layer with agreed code words and signs allows for some control over the situation and sanity of the act.

3. Because the Dom wants. That's not sufficient for sane BDSM. It would be rape if the Sub doesn't want (unofficially ;) ) So works only together with 1) or 2)
 

messaline

Crucified Amazon
I think that Fantasmo is right: sane BDSM cannot exist if only one of the part
is concerned, and it is that which misses in the text, in my opinion...
"Marie", obviously, hasn't experiences with a considerating Dom , but perhaps with
"professional" Dom, payed to give suffering and making his "job", without love or
a minima respect...
But want she anything else ? I think no...
She wants to suffer, it's her nature , it's, obviously, the only though which interests her....
In my opinion, it's not sufficient and it's damage ...
 

Fantasmo

Senator
I think that Fantasmo is right: sane BDSM cannot exist if only one of the part is concerned, and it is that which misses in the text, in my opinion...
"Marie", obviously, hasn't experiences with a considerating Dom , but perhaps with "professional" Dom, payed to give suffering and making his "job", without love or a minima respect...
This is like fucking without love: Still fun, but dull compared to the real thing!
But want she anything else ? I think no...
She wants to suffer, it's her nature , it's, obviously, the only though which interests her....
If she doesn't want anything else then maybe because she doesn't know better... because she has never experienced it.
 

Eulalia

Poet Laureate
Staff member
3. Because the Dom wants. That's not sufficient for sane BDSM. It would be rape if the Sub doesn't want (unofficially ;) ) So works only together with 1) or 2)

"Want" is a tricky word.​
In a true Master/ slave relationship, the slave has no "wants" or "don't wants".​
But that sort of relationship can only happen when the chemistry between the two is just right,​
and I'd say a period of (at least) a year is needed to test that out,​
during which time both parties need to be very open and honest with each other about how they're feeling and how it's developing -​
and either side can pull out, or ask for the relationship to remain on a "voluntary" Dom/sub basis.​
I know from experience, and now find myself rather often counselling girls​
who've got into that sort of relationship without a 'time of novitiate' (yes, it is like entering into religious vows)​
and things have turned nasty.​
Thanks for the chemistry lesson - endorphines, I thought they had something to do with it! ;)
I'm not easy with the implication that it might all be chemistry -​
do the emotions trigger the chemistry, or vice versa?​
Chicken & egg problem.​
 

Fantasmo

Senator
"Want" is a tricky word.​
In a true Master/ slave relationship, the slave has no "wants" or "don't wants".​
In fantasy...yes.​
In reality: I doubt that a sane person doesn't have "would like to have's", "don't like's" and "no-go's". (soft and hard limits).​
You don't submit repeatedly to a Dom if his actions are not "serving" your pleasure (even if in a twisted way).​
And you better don't submit if you don't know that he/she does respect your limits.​
It can be coincidence (dangerous) or communication that makes the Dom's actions and the Sub's soft/hard limits match.​
In an ideal Dom/Sub relationship the Sub doesn't need to care about "wants" and "don't want's" because the Dom does care about.​
But that sort of relationship can only happen when the chemistry between the two is just right, and I'd say a period of (at least) a year is needed to test that out,​
during which time both parties need to be very open and honest with each other about how they're feeling and how it's developing -​
and either side can pull out, or ask for the relationship to remain on a "voluntary" Dom/sub basis.​
That's the normal evolution. I fully agree.​
With evolving knowledge about the other party and the corresponding trust building, you can "release control".​
But let's not fool ourselves, you release if you know that you are not falling deeper than intended! That's still sort of control, "wants" and "don't wants", but they are not disturbing the role play any more.​
I'm not easy with the implication that it might all be chemistry -
do the emotions trigger the chemistry, or vice versa?​
Chicken & egg problem.​
Sure not, but it explains quite a bit. There are other aspects regarding the intellectual interest for the matter...
 

thehangingtree

Proconsul
Staff member
Chicken & egg problem. Eulalia

remember cook an egg the chicken is involved. Cook a chicken and it is committed...

Tree

(choke your chicken you'll go blind then go to hell!!!!)
 

Fantasmo

Senator
a year is needed to test that out, during which time both parties need to be very open and honest with each other about how they're feeling and how it's developing -
Need to add here: Communication is important, not only for the first year.
I see where you are going with the "voluntary" vs. "firm" Dom/Sub relationship.
I know that for girls like you the thought of "true" enslavement may be thrilling.
But humans evolve and change over time, there is still some need for feedback.
If a slave girl is made to write a daybook of her slavery, there is a neutral platform for her to express her feelings, without need to critique her master.
 

messaline

Crucified Amazon
and I'd say a period of (at least) a year is needed to test that out,
during which time both parties need to be very open and honest with each other about how they're feeling and how it's developing -​

Entirely agree! For this reason, it's better to do BDSM in couple and when love is present, that's the most we can obtain...(it's my experience and I can say that I've a great luck ! ;))

You don't submit repeatedly to a Dom if his actions are not "serving" your pleasure

How it is true and reciprocally...
 

Fantasmo

Senator
Entirely agree! For this reason, it's better to do BDSM in couple and when love is present, that's the most we can obtain...(it's my experience and I can say that I've a great luck ! ;))



How it is true and reciprocally...
Well, what Eulalia is referring to is the a bit "rougher" style that is serving wilder desires. Love in the sense you are meaning needn't necessarily be involved, but it has to be replaced by some other, similar feelings. See Sir Steven and O in "History of O"
 

thehangingtree

Proconsul
Staff member
Years ago I read a book that he claims really happened. He ran an ad in alternative newspaper for a woman to be the “Bound, disciplined, masochistic” half of a BD/SM relationship for one year. In the ad he stated what type of woman he was interested in, including height, weight, race, and bra cup size. He excluded anyone without at least two years college, tattoos were taboo, and the only body piercing allowed was earrings. No money would trade hands but the woman selected would submit to whatever he wanted. His part of the bargain was she would be fed well enough to maintain her body weight (and in fact she would be punished if she gained or lost a certain amount of weight) and there would be no injuries that caused scars or break bones. He also said he could display her to whomever he wanted to but she would not be penetrated by anyone but him. There would be no ‘safe word’; she would have to trust him. The selected woman could write and even sell her story as long as his identity and location were protected. Then he sat back and to see if he’d get any responses.

To his surprise he has more than a dozen, including a police woman that was not there to find out if he was breaking any laws, but to submit her for consideration to the position. Several things struck him about the women. There wasn’t one who’d have not laughed him off if he tried to pick them up at a bar.

He settled on a thirty-four year old with a PHD in human behavior psychology. She told him in her interview she would definitely write about her experience and inquired if there were certain things she could take off the table. He asked what they were, she told him and he wrote them down as she did. When she finished telling him looked at the list and told her a couple things didn’t matter one way or the other to him but he refused to tell her which ones (he admits in the book he didn’t know what some of the acts even were). He tore the list in half and told her she was not really interested in being a submissive.

She said if the list was a deal breaker she’d forget about. He told her to get her affairs in order and where to be at a certain time a month from then. After she left he taped the list together and placed it in his wallet. Long story shortened his dream ‘sexy, educated slave with a face and body to dream about’ did show up at the appointed time and he took her in as his slave.

In the book he describe things he did that I had no idea what he was talking about, Al Gore hadn’t invented the internet, and the public library had no reference material on things such as ‘fisting’ (why would anyone get off punching a woman’s ass, I wondered). After six months things had escalated to the point he realized that while she subjected herself to whatever torments he desired, he felt unfulfilled and needed to let her free or he was going to explore things that were going to hurt her far beyond the agreement.

He wondered how he could do many of the things he did to her. Many of them she did not ‘submit’ to but he controlled her and subjected her to. He did things that he would not do to a dog and thrilled at her cries of anguish and pain. Then he read a book about tortures inflicted on Jewish women and other ‘enemies’ of the third Reich and realized he was dangerously close to that edge.



He felt dead inside knowing what seemed like a dream situation had robbed him of any humanity within him.

After he set her free he drifted from job to job across the country for five years. He was bagging groceries in the Pacific Northwest when he helped carry a pretty woman’s bags out to her car. As he placed the last bag in the back of the Jeep she pulled off her sunglasses and said “we still have more to explore if you’d like to do it together this time.”

tree
 

messaline

Crucified Amazon
he felt unfulfilled and needed to let her free or he was going to explore things that were going to hurt her far beyond the agreement.
and realized he was dangerously close to that edge.
He felt dead inside knowing what seemed like a dream situation had robbed him of any humanity within him.

It shows very well how something which is only a play at first, can , without control, degenerate ; a simple Dom can,in this case, become a real torturer,
like Nazy, and he dont make any difference between his own pleasure and victim's
feeling ...
In my opinion, Marie is wrong when she says that she's a victim by nature (I agree), but without saying about her limits, about Dom's limits (I desagree)...
I wanted to post another Marie's reflexion about her relation with Doms
and you'll see that she've not a good, sane experience of BDSM ...
 

messaline

Crucified Amazon
Marie wrote:

Monday, March 24, 2008 "Everything is going well" Sure not! Nothing is going well! What a lie! There is nothing joyful, nothing sweet, there is no sharing of feeling, there is no communion of souls, there is no tenderness , but it is not true and archi false. There is that of the solitary suffering, we are not normal.Dont make as if we were. Let us be humble. Talk about psychic tearing , talk about lack of love, but do not speak of happiness. It is vulgar
 

messaline

Crucified Amazon
And ....
We are here to help you", "We are doing everything to you for your blooming", "What is important to us, it is your happiness in the realization of your fantasies". The community of masters and mistresses BDSM would be the first form of pure altruism of the human race? Bullshit! Lie! These inept phrases are only here to reassure the new entrants. Nobody wants the good of person, yet least free and yet even less when it is question of sexuality.
....

It's meaningfull.....;)
 

Fantasmo

Senator
It shows very well how something which is only a play at first, can , without control, degenerate ; a simple Dom can,in this case, become a real torturer, like Nazy, and he dont make any difference between his own pleasure and victim's
feeling ...
That's why I am saying that having two layers of communication (Dom / Sub & Human / Human) all the time is essential.

Secondly, many people are venturing into the slippery slope of "always a bit more", what inevitably will be a dead end!
The only sustainable (and equally satisfying) long term development goal is "always more sophisticated", be it the environment, be it how the technical matters are mastered (talk about control of the whip for example).
"Variation and improvement" instead of "harder"...
 

Fantasmo

Senator
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