Philosophy Conversation Thread

[captivecuties]

More of a is math independent from physics (as in, there are mathematical concepts that don't make sense IRL) or is math just an an abstraction from physical realities and therefore ultimately dependent on physics kinda thing. Now, the science of physics is nothing more than the effort to translate observed phenomena into the language of mathematics (we don't know what or why these phenomena in themselves are, we just describe them) and to check if these translations are accurate by comparing extrapolations from these translations to experiments. Based on this, one could argue that mathematics are independent from physics, because mathematics are necessary to conduct the science of physics, e.g. without math no physics.
However, if you take a look at the early history of mathematics, they were basically nothing more than early physics. When a primitive human counted 3 bananas, he did nothing else than translate the "threeness" of what he saw into an abstract language. This allowed him to apply the same threeness to other things, however, this threeness is still derived from those bananas (or any other set of three objects), so it has its origin in physical reality. In a way, modern physics are exactly the same thing, just on a much grander and more complex scale.

I think this question is important, because IF mathematics depend on physics, then there is a possibility, that mathematics ultimately don't make sense. What if the universe is ultimately illogical? What if it just seems to make sense to us because we are limited beings? What if it just makes sense on an "emergent" level, but not on a fundamental one, a level not perceivable by humans? Just look at the troubles physicists have to create a coherent physical theory. Currently, it seems to be impossible.
Well, our failure to come up with a coherent physical theory might just be an indicator that our physics are simply wrong or that we haven't found the solution yet. But if it indeed is impossible and our sub-theories are right - and if math is indeed dependent on physics - then this would make our universe really creepy. Almost lovecraftian.

Don't get me wrong, I sympathize with Platonists, I really do. But questions like this still come up from time to time.

Point taken and well put.
If then, perhaps as in most human things…we apply mathematics to explain the strange physical things we observe to give a sense of meaning and order that will provide us a feeling of security.
Like not fearing the Cthulhu under the bed.
And the witness anomalies through the centuries are indeed that Lovecraftien merging of the other into our own from time to time.

 

[Deleted member 47625]

Point taken and well put.
If then, perhaps as in most human things…we apply mathematics to explain the strange physical things we observe to give a sense of meaning and order that will provide us a feeling of security.
Like not fearing the Cthulhu under the bed.
And the witness anomalies through the centuries are indeed that Lovecraftien merging of the other into our own from time to time.

I think we do it because it just makes sense. Three bananas and two bananas make five bananas. Or if a plank has the length of two times my arm, then three planks of the same length have the length of six of my arms. There is no arguing with that. This is what's actually self-evident, unlike all the stuff written in the American declaration of independence! But then, millennia later, we get to quantum mechanics and general relativity.

 

[captivecuties]

I think we do it because it just makes sense. Three bananas and two bananas make five bananas. Or if a plank has the length of two times my arm, then three planks of the same length have the length of six of my arms. There is no arguing with that. This is what's actually self-evident, unlike all the stuff written in the American declaration of independence! But then, millennia later, we get to quantum mechanics and general relativity.

I see what you mean.
Same could be said of superstitions pertaining to how we as a species deal with them,I think.
Say I am a primitive human and Thunder frightens me.
By my thinking,since I have two arms and legs and a head, there must be some invisible sky being that looks sort of like me making that noise. I explain the fear away with some sort of invented reason but not entirely the correct reason.
We apply science to to explain things up to an accepted point with the caveat that this is the best we can do with what we know so far but it can be subject to change if we discover something to alter/ disprove or confirm.

But there we go…we have the perymeds, ancient astronomy that has connections all over the world before shared technology and anything else we can’t explain=aliens.

 

[Deleted member 47625]

I disagree with that. Science isn't just some hocus pocus we make up to feel better. If it was, it wouldn't work, but it does. It works so well that we sent people to the moon, have the ability to communicate instantly across the entire globe and have little things in our pockets containing the entire knowledge of mankind.

That's what makes this question so mind fucking.

 

[captivecuties]

I disagree with that. Science isn't just some hocus pocus we make up to feel better. If it was, it wouldn't work, but it does. It works so well that we sent people to the moon, have the ability to communicate instantly across the entire globe and have little things in our pockets containing the entire knowledge of mankind.

That's what makes this question so mind fucking.

Not to say science as hocus pocus but the human need to explain things either through superstions in the past or applying math and sciences to explore the unknown things of today.
We, as a species, explore and also want things explained to us.

 

[Deleted member 47625]

Not to say science as hocus pocus but the human need to explain things either through superstions in the past or applying math and sciences to explore the unknown things of today.
We, as a species, explore and also want things explained to us.

I think the expectation towards science to explain all the mysteries of the universe to us is a rather modern phenomenon, which started with Christianity. Before Christianity, math and physics (no other science really existed back then) were basically engineering and leisure activities. To the Babylonians and ancient Egyptians, math was a mere tool. It gave them the ability to build pretty complex structures and to manage their economy. This is why their math remained rather basic. To the ancient Greeks, math had the same purpose, but on top of that, it also became a fun activity for the rich to indulge in. That's where the fundamentals of modern, higher math emerged.

However, after the advent of Christianity, the idea of an intelligible universe created by God, only waiting to be claimed by the reason of his children, became dominant. Yes, Aristotle and others had these ideas before, but before the middle ages, their teachings never caught on as much (and also were fought by early Christians, ironically) and they were lost in Europe until the 13th century, anyway. However, I believe this is when the expectation towards science to solve all of the universe's secrets was born.

I don't think the Romans and Germanic and Celtic tribes were interested in such questions. Their mythologies were mere representations of natural forces, but their purpose wasn't to explain them.

tl;dr: I believe people didn't really expect "deep answers" until very recently ago.

Edit: A similar development motivated by the same ideas I didn't talk about were mathematics in the medieval Islamic world, but that's another topic.

 

[captivecuties]

I think the expectation towards science to explain all the mysteries of the universe to us is a rather modern phenomenon, which started with Christianity. Before Christianity, math and physics (no other science really existed back then) were basically engineering and leisure activities. To the Babylonians and ancient Egyptians, math was a mere tool. It gave them the ability to build pretty complex structures and to manage their economy. This is why their math remained rather basic. To the ancient Greeks, math had the same purpose, but on top of that, it also became a fun activity for the rich to indulge in. That's where the fundamentals of modern, higher math emerged.

However, after the advent of Christianity, the idea of an intelligible universe created by God, only waiting to be claimed by the reason of his children, became dominant. Yes, Aristotle and others had these ideas before, but before the middle ages, their teachings never caught on as much (and also were fought by early Christians, ironically) and they were lost in Europe until the 13th century, anyway. However, I believe this is when the expectation towards science to solve all of the universe's secrets was born.

I don't think the Romans and Germanic and Celtic tribes were interested in such questions. Their mythologies were mere representations of natural forces, but their purpose wasn't to explain them.

tl;dr: I believe people didn't really expect "deep answers" until very recently ago.

Edit: A similar development motivated by the same ideas I didn't talk about were mathematics in the medieval Islamic world, but that's another topic.

I think we are on the same page now, yes. It is what I was driving at.

 

[Deleted member 47625]

I think we are on the same page now, yes. It is what I was driving at.

Would you mind to elaborate?

 

[Deleted member 47625]

I think it's unhelpful to speak in terms of moral statements being 'true' - at least, I'd query what is meant by 'true' in such contexts.

Aren't you basically looking for moral axioms?

 

[Eulalia]

Aren't you basically looking for moral axioms?

well, perhaps not so much 'looking for' them, but simply observing that all humans, however much they may differ and disagree about what is right or wrong, think, speak and act on the assumption that there are some such principles that can be applied in making judgements.

 

[Deleted member 47625]

well, perhaps not so much 'looking for' them, but simply observing that all humans, however much they may differ and disagree about what is right or wrong, think, speak and act on the assumption that there are some such principles that can be applied in making judgements.

That sounds a lot like axioms to me. Well, maybe not in the autistic mathematical sense, but in a practical sense.

 

[Loxuru]

There is truth, but somehow, our brain is not capable to catch it.

What starts with counting bananas using our fingers as a calculator, was the base for arithmetic operations. The concept of truth was soon challenged by the Pythagorian disaster : numbers or not the idealised truth. An although we can build things, fly to the Moon and do other great things with math, we still cannot grab such things as real numbers, leave complex numbers, with their squared minus one, although the latter are used in the design of the parts that make the computer work, I am typing this text on!

 

[Deleted member 47625]

There is truth, but somehow, our brain is not capable to catch it.

What starts with counting bananas using our fingers as a calculator, was the base for arithmetic operations. The concept of truth was soon challenged by the Pythagorian disaster : numbers or not the idealised truth. An although we can build things, fly to the Moon and do other great things with math, we still cannot grab such things as real numbers, leave complex numbers, with their squared minus one, although the latter are used in the design of the parts that make the computer work, I am typing this text on!

Thank you for keeping this interesting thread alive.

What is important to note is that pre-modern people made a difference between numbers and magnitude. We consider many things to be numbers which pre-modern people wouldn't have recognized as such. Fractions and therefore ratios are an example for what I mean. To ancient Greeks, anything that lies between whole numbers was no number, but a magnitude. This may sound arbitrary, but from a philosophical standpoint, differentiating between those things makes sense.

 

[Louiscrow1]

It's the same with incompetency.

and karma