Pre-modern/fantasy arrest and detention

[KageKamen]

A lot of us here have something in common with many people in the ancient world - we love to see a good punishment. From a whipping or pelting someone in the stocks to hangings or, you know, crucifixion, it's good to see harsh justice being done to the deserving, right? (And if the deserving is a pretty girl, well, that makes a change from the usual nee'r-do-wells.)

However, for the above to be civilized justice, there must be judgement first - and before that, accusation. In a world before policing as we know it today emerged, what road brought criminals (true or purported) from living fancy free to standing before a judge? Who captured them? Where were they held, and under what conditions? And how was the trial, if any put together - getting the right people in court at the right time and so on? Did punishment follow directly after conviction, and if not, what came between?

Feel free to present answers from any historical era, or your own ideas for how such might be handled in a similar setting.

 

[Loxuru]

A few historical details that come up to me :

As from the Middle Ages, there were officers, charged by the king or the local ruler with administrative and/or judicial duties among which law enforcement. They mostly commanded guard militias , carrying out police-like tasks.

Often, after a trial, there was no appeal possible. Execution often took place the next day or even the same day as the verdict.

Torture was often part of the investigation. Yet, it was often an option offered to the accused. If the accused could keep up their claim of innocence or deny the accusations under torture, they were often believed and released.

Prison terms were rarely spoken. Accused were imprisoned before trial, but convictions rather concerned death, or getting banned. There are of course stories of people getting incarcarated for life, but this was rarely by a court verdict, rather a private action to get an opponent out of the way.

 

[KageKamen]

A few historical details that come up to me :

As from the Middle Ages, there were officers, charged by the king or the local ruler with administrative and/or judicial duties among which law enforcement. They mostly commanded guard militias , carrying out police-like tasks.

I see... so not a total lack of such forces. So they would be in charge of capturing offenders and removing them to gaol, with some help from the hue and cry of course? Would they speak to the accused's guilt in court?

Often, after a trial, there was no appeal possible. Execution often took place the next day or even the same day as the verdict.

Swift justice! Though when it was later, even by a day, they would need to be removed to either whence they came or a special "condemned cell".

Although I was under the impression that executions, particularly of infamous people, were big events - doesn't that require time to advertise?

Torture was often part of the investigation. Yet, it was often an option offered to the accused. If the accused could keep up their claim of innocence or deny the accusations under torture, they were often believed and released.

An interesting twist on the usual take!

Who was in charge of performing such questioning, and gathering evidence in general?

 

[Loinclothslave]

Trial by ordeal has been a famous brutal concept for centuries. If a person, generally the accused, stands up to torture, they can prove their innocence.

Trial by fire is a favourite of mine. One version has the accused forced to gmhold a hot iron (by the hot end) and endure it for five minutes. His hands are bands aged and examined in 3 days- if they have healed he is deemed innocent, if festering he must be guilty.

I read somewhere a slave accusing a freeman of some horrible crime, say a Patric odd, he had to endure holding such a hot coal 3 times in 3 days. It may have been apocryphal but a freeman accused would have to endure a dull red iron but a slave would have to endure white hot. If they let go of the iron, they must be lying.

there are many variations- walking through hot coals or heated metal is another. Apparently there was a crusader who claimed to have found the holy lance, but was disbelieved so had to endure a walk-through trial by fire, apparently didn’t survive so obviously a complete liar.

My understanding that slaves in Roman times could choose to endure trial by fire to have their testimony heard (or an accusation tested if they’re the rare accuser)

Obviously many different trials by ordeal were employed by the various inquisitions. Including by fire, have to keep those witches and heretics in line I guess. Salem witch trials routinely used trial by water.

My understanding is such torturous trial by ordeals we’re relatively common in ancient times. Justice was brutal, not to mention distinctly in-just. I bet there are horrible places still left in the world where certain classes of people will be subject to such trials of torment. Perhaps not publicly, but brutal torture is still in use, even chattel slavery exists. Certainly technically illegal in Libya but it’s well documented, and their treatment is awful.

__________________________________

Can you imagine enduring something like this to try and prove your innocence? Loinclothslave can. It almost makes me want to be accused!

 

[dfg42]

Prison terms were rarely spoken. Accused were imprisoned before trial, but convictions rather concerned death, or getting banned. There are of course stories of people getting incarcarated for life, but this was rarely by a court verdict, rather a private action to get an opponent out of the way.

If seen prisons in the castles near my living place. There are mostly deep holes up to 20m without light, I would rather prefer to be crucified, similar to my avatar, than being there for some time. Todays justice, should use prisons not for punishing, but to protect the people from dangerous persons, so thiefs, drug addicts and financial crime commiter have nothing to search in prisons. Btw the US Vice President has not that opinion. Seeing the development with the covid-crisis, we see that the justice system begins to loose its modern attitude and we go straight into the medical time.

 

[KageKamen]

Trial by ordeal has been a famous brutal concept for centuries. If a person, generally the accused, stands up to torture, they can prove their innocence.

I actually heard that these were mostly rigged by the priests who administered them, based on their perception of the accused's guilt. Though there might have been some who didn't get the message...

If seen prisons in the castles near my living place. There are mostly deep holes up to 20m without light, I would rather prefer to be crucified, similar to my avatar, than being there for some time.

Well, punishment is not for the convenience of the punished...

 

[dfg42]

I actually heard that these were mostly rigged by the priests who administered them, based on their perception of the accused's guilt. Though there might have been some who didn't get the message...


Well, punishment is not for the convenience of the punished...

That is why no more crucifixions! What is better than being flogged, then you could live out all your exhibitionistic desires, first by walking nude to the crucifixion place, then you get on the cross, where you can show your erected penis, while your asshole is pampered with a tremendous cornu while you have your best orgasms. Only with the nails I have some problems..... No, crucifixion is to good for our gangsters, better put them in prison, where they are tortured at the gym and by watching horrible tv shows.... How cruel our time is with the people, or as we say: "Everything was better in the past."

 

[Loxuru]

Swift justice! Though when it was later, even by a day, they would need to be removed to either whence they came or a special "condemned cell".

These old towns had lots of buildings intended for the defence of the city. Particularly gates, towers, etc... Most of the time, they were not in use for the purpose they were built. So, they offered plenty of spaces to lock up an accused or a condemned for the brief time of the trial, or awating the execution of the sentence. If not, there were still the basements of the city hall that could be used as cells.

 

[KageKamen]

These old towns had lots of buildings intended for the defence of the city. Particularly gates, towers, etc... Most of the time, they were not in use for the purpose they were built. So, they offered plenty of spaces to lock up an accused or a condemned for the brief time of the trial, or awating the execution of the sentence. If not, there were still the basements of the city hall that could be used as cells.

So actual gaols were rare? What about more common criminals, like rowdy drunks and such?

 

[Naraku]

So actual gaols were rare? What about more common criminals, like rowdy drunks and such?

Most crimes were punished with fines. A trial would usually be held rather soon after arrest. Instead of or in addition to a fine, public shaming was often applied; such as:
The Drunkard's Cloak

The Shrew's Fiddle

And dunking

Which was often used on women

There were also the punishment so popular on this Forum.
The stocks and pillory

And whipping

 

[KageKamen]

Most crimes were punished with fines. A trial would usually be held rather soon after arrest. Instead of or in addition to a fine, public shaming was often applied; such as:

Yes - as I said, that's the fun part. I just wanted to know a bit more about how they got there.

 

[dfg42]

Probably I will never get where the punishment hides when we put someone on public with the pillory and even more so when they are clothed. we see that by the often reenactement of that punishment on every historic festival. I already told my father made such pillories for the 800 year festival of my village. Probably the nudity would bring it, probably with some abuse. So humiliation is the point. Today, how could a corrupt and incompetent to the bones judicial system humiliate someone?They are a shame for itself. I see however good points. First of all: A pillory is extremely cheap, compared to the cost of someone in prison. Secondly we can see the bad, bad people in the nude, isn't that great? And we could spent the money we no longer waste with the hotels for our criminals, also known as prisons, for useful things, such as streets schools and the crucifixions of the more heavy criminals.



makes a good event

, you could make some educational event: Females have two holes for us men, not only one, you know allready---

it is a very aesthetic punishment

it is a cheap method, but you need an additional


sometimes, but very seldom also males commit crimes.

 

[Loxuru]

Sometimes, the punishment was making a pilgrimage. Costly and dangerous. Getting shipwrecked, robbed or enslaved underway, were among the risks.

 

[dfg42]

That might be a good modern version of the pillory idea. I found out that not many males are being punished, only young, nude females. I take this as indication that the crime rate of young, beautiful females is much higher than the rest of the population. We should do something about that.

 

[Boris Spider]

Now *THAT* has possibilities!

 

[KageKamen]

Interesting pics, but we do have threads for the pillory and such... anyone got on-topic posts?

 

[old slave]

Feel free to present answers from any historical era,

@Praefectus Praetorio wrote an extremely well-researched so accurate account of Georgian London justice(!) in https://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/rebecca-and-the-bloody-codes.7734/

 

[KageKamen]

@Praefectus Praetorio wrote an extremely well-researched so accurate account of Georgian London justice(!) in https://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/rebecca-and-the-bloody-codes.7734/

Yes - some interesting points.

• Pre-trial detention seems to be only overnight, and in a watchhouse. Handling seems dependent on one's wealth and outside connections.
• The arresting officer seems to be in charge of facilitating matters - presumably not so hard in such a short timeframe.
• The victims do not appear in court themselves, but give sworn affidavits.
• The judge(s) seem to have the choice to involve a jury or not.
• Post-trial detention is in a private prison. This one has some "special arrangements", but presumably most prisoners are held more normally, once again in accordance with their wealth and connections.
• The punishment is set to take place within a fortnight, and fairly advertised, with tickets being sold to the best seats.

An excellent showcase of such goings-on in a post-medieval, pre-Victorian setting. (Or at least, in a major urban center - I expect things varied in smaller towns and villages.)

 

[Praefectus Praetorio]

@Praefectus Praetorio wrote an extremely well-researched so accurate account of Georgian London justice(!) in https://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/rebecca-and-the-bloody-codes.7734/

An excellent showcase of such goings-on in a post-medieval, pre-Victorian setting. (Or at least, in a major urban center - I expect things varied in smaller towns and villages.)

Thank you both for the kind words. I would point out that the character and crime in "Rebecca" is purely fiction, with as historically accurate background and surrounding characters as possible.
I wrote a second, similar story (https://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threa...istory-of-mary-jones-sad-life-and-death.8063/) that hewed even closer to historical facts. This one is based on an actual event and follows closely all the documentary sources to the historical hanging of this young woman.

 

[KageKamen]

Thank you both for the kind words. I would point out that the character and crime in "Rebecca" is purely fiction, with as historically accurate background and surrounding characters as possible.
I wrote a second, similar story (https://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threa...istory-of-mary-jones-sad-life-and-death.8063/) that hewed even closer to historical facts. This one is based on an actual event and follows closely all the documentary sources to the historical hanging of this young woman.

Ah, that's where the parts I thought I remembered went! One of my favourite stories on this site (if the term is applicable to such a tragic account of embellished fact), detailing proceedings in the same place, but several decades later. Key points include:

• The initial seizure being by the shopkeepers themselves, and then a constable summoned (who they assisted)
• The initial detention being in a "compter" - a small local jail that's the closest equivalent to a police lockup, but run and funded by the local magistrate and therefore known for bleeding it's prisoners to cover operating costs. The unfortunate captives are held, unrestrained? in a common cell with other prisoners of both genders - whether more private cells existed is unclear, but they would surely be for those who could afford them.
• The arraignment being done in absentia, with the plaintiffs appearing before the magistrate (and tipping him) and the date of trial (few lasted long) arranged then. In some seasons this might have been swift, and the accused held in the compter (especially if they could afford it) but with the court recessed and the captives indigent, they were remanded to a true and infamous prison - Newgate.
• Of course, Newgate runs on the same principles of "privilege for those who can afford it". The wealthy might (if not accused of serious crimes) have decent food and accommodation, and something of the run of the place - the poor, on the other hand, would be kept in chains (on their feet at least), thrown together in dark, cold and noisome common cells, and sometimes even have the clothes taken from their backs. And as far as I can tell, while there was segregation by wealth and of debtors from criminals, there was none based on age or gender.
• The actual trial was swift and without any counsel (such being a rarity, and almost unheard of for the poor), but not wholly unfair - the innocent was freed and the guilty convicted. The cruelty instead takes the form of the brutally harsh law, mandating death for so many relatively petty crimes, and the judges reluctance to amend it for even the most undeserving convicted.
• Of course, it could be one reason they preferred to err on the side of harshness (besides deterring crime) was because about half of sentences would be remitted anyway, generally to transportation - so they could see their condemnation as theatre for the masses as opposed to an actual sentence of death. However, as the fate of Mary proves, remittance was never guaranteed.
• Actual executions were grouped together on a handful of set dates a year, giving time for such above-mentioned mercies to be arranged as well as for publicization of the "programme of events". And events they were, drawing spectators of all ages, sexes. classes and motivations.
• If Newgate was hard enough on common criminals lacking in cash, then even worse the fate of those condemned to die. To be placed in small, private cells might be a blessing or a curse depending on one's treatment by fellow prisoners - but that these cells were even darker and fouler, and the condemned chained hand and foot, is a clear negative. (Due to Mary's penury, it is not clear how much, if at all, money could alleviate these conditions.)
• The condemned - particularly attractive young women - were of course objects of easy abuse for the rougher jailers (and it was a profession which attracted rough men). Although they might have tried their luck in the common hold too, in the death cells there was no risk of being seen by others, and the victim would take what happened to them to the grave (or America). But actual sex with prisoners, willing or otherwise, carried stiff enough rules and penalties that few would dare going beyond looking to touching.
• On the final day, the condemned were brought out in their chains, which were switched for rope bindings, and the nooses awaiting them laid around their necks - then it was into the carts (which also held their waiting coffins) and off on the long road to the gallows. A road made longer by constant harassment from the crowd, varying in different spots along the way, and held back from the greatest excesses only by a guard of riders.
• The gallows themselves were designed to work with the carts, which were ridden out from under the condemned. Despite the rope being chosen for each of them based on measurements taken by the executioner and his assistants the day before, the process of dying was not swift. The prisoners would writhe, kick, piss... just how much of the crowd liked it.
• The bodies would be left to hang for an hour after death (just to make sure) - some would then go on to burial, but the worse sorts would be bound for dissection by student doctors.

So yeah - a lot of very evocative stuff!