Sensitive topics - reality and fantasy too close together?

[Servus Venandi]

Not to get too political, but right now in my country we have protesters being thrown into unmarked vans by law enforcement.

I halfway object to this characterization, but the last time I responded to something similar, it ended with a threat of moderator wrath.

On the subject at hand, horror and sex are ubiquitous to human history, and have been depicted in art and fiction for the duration, sometimes together. There might be something "wrong" with some of us, but I doubt the percentage is any higher than for any other arbitrary group of disparate people sharing an interest.

Otherwise, I think I agree with you. No statistics, but I'd wager that empathy for victims in erotic art (or porn, whatever the delineation there might be) is important for most of us. Even stuff that isn't created with any particular goal of making a sympathetic character, still triggers that reaction in my brain alongside the obvious "damn, she's hot." Good erotic fantasy works like good comedy—it contains just enough reality to make you think twice, but it's still sexy/funny.

 

[nsur1]

No statistics, but I'd wager that empathy for victims in erotic art (or porn, whatever the delineation there might be) is important for most of us.

That is key, really, at least for me -- I have little or no interest in stories from the point of view of a torturer or executioner who treats the victim as a piece of meat. The fantasy comes from empathy for the victim and imagining how an ordinary person may react to being put into such an extreme situation. Not that unusual a fantasy either: it's how many mainstream novels and movies work (most horror or crime fiction, for example).

 

[Loxuru]

What is 'sensitive'? Some fifty years ago, there was a wave of Nazisploitation movies, like 'Ilsa, the she-wolf of the SS' and many others. No one in these times complained about sensitivity, it was rather considered as of bad taste. And that was only 25 years after the war, when many survivors of the Nazi attrocities were still alive. Other movies of the more artistic kind, like 'Nightporter', and 'The Passenger' , took on the relationship between guard and victim in a controversial way. Parts of 'The Passenger' were even shot on site in Auschwitz. This was possible in 1960, but I wonder if it would be allowed today, sixty years later, because of 'too sensitive'.

In that era, of the 1970's, there were also erotic comics about Nazi violence. Again : just bad taste, but like 'Ilsa',turned out to become a mainstream box office succes, they sold nevertheless.

In our mind's fantasy, real attrocities apparently quickly trigger a hint of eroticism. I do not see the problem, as long as it remains a background source for fantasy, not a political statement (although, I think even some controversy in the plotline is allowed). Any adult should be capable to distinguish between those

 

[Silent_Water]

Just an additional example which illustrates my opinion that every (violent) fantasy could be regarded very different in the changing of times and political "fashions":

In my humble opinion, this US-American-German comedy by the famous director Billy Wilder is one of the best political comedies of all times, unfortunately almost 40 years ahead of its time in making: 1961.

One, Two, Three - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It was made with the funniest and most satirical dialogues you could imagine about the history of Nazism and Stalinism in Germany and the struggle between the USA and the Soviet Union, but it was made exactly around the time when the Berlin wall was built and the Communist "German Democratic Republic" made a fence around its inhabitants in order to prevent them of fleeing into the West of Germany.
So, no one in Germany, in the USA and many other European countries really found this movie funny at this special time in 1961, because the Third World War really seemed to be possible in the near future. Even in Finland, this movie was not permitted to be shown until 1986 or so because of the special situation of the "neutralized status" of Finland which did not want to make the Soviet Union angry!

Almost 40 years later, when the end of the GDR seemed to come, this movie was shown again in some German cinemas and it was the greatest movie hit especially for young German students. Later, it was shown again on German TV and almost everyone was delighted, crying tears in laughter and all spectators thought, this is one of the best satirical exaggerations ever made about politics during the whole 20th century.

So, what is regarded as "acceptable" depends very much on how you are affected yourself by the harming situation which is shown for example in a movie, in pictures or in stories and how current the harming situation actually is or was for you in reality.

I also really understand Jewish persons who did not understand and could not laugh about this crazy movie by Mel Brooks in the USA in 1967:

The Producers (1967 film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But on the other hand, Mel Brooks was right when he once said: "It is necessary to make some persons or situations public in unusal or even ridiculous ways because if more people had laughed right in the beginning about such bizarre creatures like Hitler or Stalin and the often ridiculous criminals around them, they probably never would have become so dangerous. And when they once get powerful, it is often too late or too dangerous to laugh about them."

(Sorry, but after a long nightshift, I mix numbers and dates: The "GDR" existed 40 years and "One, Two, Three" was 25 years ahead of its time. Now, it is almost correct, I think. ;-) )

 

[Eulalia]

In my humble opinion, this US-American-German comedy by the famous director Billy Wilder is one of the best political comedies of all times, unfortunately almost 40 years ahead of its time in making: 1961.

One, Two, Three - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's very interesting. Furstratingly, Wiki says 'It is based on the 1929 Hungarian one-act play Egy, kettő, három by Ferenc Molnár', and while there's a Wiki article on Molnar, there's no information about that play, which obviously couldn't have been set in post-WW II Berlin.

 

[Silent_Water]

I guess, the Hungarian play (Egy, kettő, három = 1, 2, 3 = Eins, zwei, drei) deals with the differences between capitalism and socialism in a rather funny way, too.
To work in a manner of 1, 2, 3 means in many European languages the same. It often means to work very fast in order to keep fast enough for an assembly line like in the Charlie Chaplin movie "Modern Times", in which it drives him crazy:

The movie "One, Two, Three" adds the special madness of the totalitarian dictatorships of Hitler and Stalin, viewed from the situation after the liberation of Western Germany.

Here, the US-manager of Coca Cola wants his German staff to work similarliy fast, but is also often asking them about their stories during the Hitler dictatorship, knowing at the same time that Stalinism is not better but trying at the same time again to make economic deals with them for his own company.
What makes everything extremely complicated in this movie is the naive daughter of the Coca Cola boss in Atlanta who falls in love with a young idealistic German stalinist who finally loses all his ideals when the East-German communists torture him for this love by playing this song all day:

The high "capitalist" speed, the double standards of everyone in this movie, the obvious lying of everyone about history and present days and the absolutely crazy dialogues which are resulting from this - all these things make this movie so uniquely funny for the most Germans during the last 30 years and this movie is often shown in Germany in cinemas and on TV on the celebration days of the German "(re-)unification"

Examples:

One of the most impressive dialogues for Germans is when the US-chief of Coca Cola asks his German staff leader:

- Schlemmer, what did you work during the world war?
- I did not really take notice of the war or of politics at all because I was in the underground.
- Oh, you were a member of the German resistance?
- Not really, I was a conductor in the subway trains of Berlin.
- So, you probably also never heard of "Adolf"?
- "Adolf"? Which "Adolf"? Never heard that name before ...

 

[Silent_Water]

... and no one could really laugh about this movie in 1961 in Germany or in the USA - but in 1989, it was the greatest movie hit on TV and on VHS video in Germany, you could ever think of ...

 

[jacksjg89]

I guess, the Hungarian play (Egy, kettő, három = 1, 2, 3 = Eins, zwei, drei) deals with the differences between capitalism and socialism in a rather funny way, too.
To work in a manner of 1, 2, 3 means in many European languages the same. It often means to work very fast in order to keep fast enough for an assembly line like in the Charlie Chaplin movie "Modern Times", in which it drives him crazy:

The movie "One, Two, Three" adds the special madness of the totalitarian dictatorships of Hitler and Stalin, viewed from the situation after the liberation of Western Germany.

Here, the US-manager of Coca Cola wants his German staff to work similarliy fast, but is also often asking them about their stories during the Hitler dictatorship, knowing at the same time that Stalinism is not better but trying at the same time again to make economic deals with them for his own company.
What makes everything extremely complicated in this movie is the naive daughter of the Coca Cola boss in Atlanta who falls in love with a young idealistic German stalinist who finally loses all his ideals when the East-German communists torture him for this love by playing this song all day:

The high "capitalist" speed, the double standards of everyone in this movie, the obvious lying of everyone about history and present days and the absolutely crazy dialogues which are resulting from this - all these things make this movie so uniquely funny for the most Germans during the last 30 years and this movie is often shown in Germany in cinemas and on TV on the celebration days of the German "(re-)unification"

Examples:

One of the most impressive dialogues for Germans is when the US-chief of Coca Cola asks his German staff leader:

- Schlemmer, what did you work during the world war?
- I did not really take notice of the war or of politics at all because I was in the underground.
- Oh, you were a member of the German resistance?
- Not really, I was a conductor in the subway trains of Berlin.
- So, you probably also never heard of "Adolf"?
- "Adolf"? Which "Adolf"? Never heard that name before ...

I only discovered One, Two, Three a few years ago, despite being a big Billy Wilder fan. Definitely a lost and found classic, that is good at poking fun at both sides.
"I have been a capitalist for 30 minutes and I am already in debt."
"That's the beauty of it. Everyone owes everyone."

 

[Loxuru]

The high "capitalist" speed, the double standards of everyone in this movie, the obvious lying of everyone about history and present days and the absolutely crazy dialogues which are resulting from this - all these things make this movie so uniquely funny for the most Germans during the last 30 years and this movie is often shown in Germany in cinemas and on TV on the celebration days of the German "(re-)unification"

I saw the movie about 30 years ago, recalled it was funny - and actually very good, but I had forgotten the name of it.


"The biggest thing that hit Atlanta since General Sherman threw that little barbecue!" Something for @Fossy !

Nevertheless, about sensitive topics, we can discuss about it what the boundaries are, but for some people, what we do here is disturbing as such. And threatening. There is a famous case about that :

Gilberto Valle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Silent_Water]

Hm, in Germany, Valle would in any case have been sentenced to a punishment for the illegal use of police databases but most probably not so much more ...
Professoral case question for students in Germany in legal studies as another example:
A man enters a bank with a revolver in his hand, stops on his way to the bank counters, looks at the fearful bank clerk, seems to think it over, turns around and goes out again, where he gets arrested by two policemen who are there by pure coincidence. The man does not resist to his immediate arrest in any way and says nothing about the reason why he was holding the revolver in his hand.
What could be the highest possible charge in a German court hearing?
Correct answer: Most probably a financial fine for illegal gun possession if he is not a registered bearer of arms like German sport shooters or registered German hunters and forest rangers.
The man did not really threaten anyone and he did not commit any crime except probably holding an illegal weapon.

 

[Jones_Tims]

Since we are discussing the controversial line between fantasy and reality, here's some controversial pieces of media.

The Exploitation cinema brought us a whole genre of movies that pick on controversial matters and show us disgusting, disturbing and unsettling scenarios. A sub-genre of this cinema is the Nazisploitation, centered around the Nazis. Of course, Ilsa: She Wolf of the SS is probably the most popular movie in this genre, making the Nazi female villain popular.

The first one is "Beast in heat" (1977). It tells the story of an evil SS (female) officer that turned a man, through experiments, into a sexually obsessed beast (purely fictional, since in real life, women worked in the SS only as prison guards, secretaries, dog handlers and other support roles, not as SS soldiers or officers). Throughout the movie, the SS woman tortures captured women and she is visibly enjoying it. She is also showing a sexual attraction towards her female staff.

3:48- A captured woman is thrown into the cage of the beast by the Nazis. The beast bites and rapes her.
43:20- The officer inspects some naked female prisoners.
55:11- Several women and one man are tortured by the Nazis. A woman is tortured with electricity. Another one is molested by the beast. Another one has her nails removed with clippers. Another one has rats biting her belly.
1:16:03- The beast molests another woman. Eventually, the Nazi officer is captured by the beast and molested, before being gunned down by Allied agents.

As much as fiction goes, this one is a pretty sick, twisted movie from the Exploitation genre. It doesn't portray the Nazis in a realistic manner (the stereotypical German accents, women serving as soldiers and officers in the SS, lesbianism being tolerated among the staff in the SS etc.), so I doubt that displaying cruelty and sadism can be excused by "historical accuracy". The whole movie is heavily inspired by "Ilsa: She Wolf of the SS", although personally, I find it more disturbing.


The second one is "Achtung! The Desert Tigers", another Exploitation film from 1977. The story is that, an Allied major is captured by the Nazis in Africa. The capturer is a sadistic Nazi officer, who enjoys torturing the local female population.

Not as cruel as the previous one (not by a long mile). One dehumanizing scene is at 20:27, when the Nazis tied up several women to a wooden support and then they splash water over their naked bodies, washing them with mops.

Of course, art should explore all kinds of topics and emotions, and the portrayal of Nazis in a serious, comedic or even absurd manner is not something new. However, I sometimes wonder what was even the point? Sexual content? I'd hardly find any of this sexually appealing. History? Most of it is not historically accurate in any way. Shock value? Honestly, it feels like it has to be shock value. However, this very specific genre, doesn't really hit the nail on the head by shocking us... the emotion it really evokes it's rather closer to being disturbing or even disgusting...slightly different from shocking. Now, some old Pulp magazine, portraying some sexy, half naked girls tied or captured by Germans, Japanese or Soviets is one thing, but to show a whole scene of torture, with abundant "blood" and even several rape scenes is taking it several steps further.

 

[windar]

I saw the movie about 30 years ago, recalled it was funny - and actually very good, but I had forgotten the name of it.


"The biggest thing that hit Atlanta since General Sherman threw that little barbecue!" Something for @Fossy !

Nevertheless, about sensitive topics, we can discuss about it what the boundaries are, but for some people, what we do here is disturbing as such. And threatening. There is a famous case about that :

Gilberto Valle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

He did 21 months for illegally accessing a police database and Barb only got 12 months. http://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/barb-behind-bars.7251/

This is shocking leniency and I demand she serve an additional 9 months!

 

[Silent_Water]

There are and probably there will always be movies of which we cannot really understand why they were made. During the late 1960's and early 1970's, there were also "cannibal"-movies, no one really knew why they were made - except that some persons could proudly say they saw the whole movie without getting sick.
By the way "saw", there are some sequels to "Saw" of which I do not understand why there are still persons who wait for "Saw VI" or "Saw VII".

Another question, there was just a mentioning of the book "Caste" in a parallel thread, so I would like to ask something I do not really understand about the relation between different colors of human beings in the USA. Even in the worst times of German history, there was this almost typical crazy German urge for perfection in planning the future of nations, cataloging human beings and races etc.
For example, there was not only the distinction between races but also the cataloging in how much someone belonged to another race. I think, I once heard of one German chancellor (Helmut Schmidt?), according to the Nazis, this chancellor would have had a grandmother who was 1/4 Jewish. Today, every German would say: "Hääh? What does this now mean and how much is this of interest for anyone if my grandmother was of one fourth Jewish origin when we all are confirmed to be German? This is crazy!"
But in 1939, this could decide your life. You would not have been regarded to be Jewish or an enemy, but you probably would not have been able to make a career in Nazi Germany.

But even today, the Germans make very detailed distinctions in multiracial relations, for example only really black African persons are regarded by Germans as being "black", sometimes as "black German citizens" (typically correct long German description: "Deutscher Staatsangehöriger mit afrikanischem Migrationshintergrund") , Asians are not black but rather "yellow" and "Indians" from the USA are rather "red". There is also the very decisive distinction between "Indianer" (= "American Indians") and "Inder" (= "Indians from the real India") and many Germans are a bit confused when they read of the "Indian Air Force", because then they ask themselves since when the Navajos or Sioux have had their own Air Force!?!

In any case, no German really understands why Kamala Harris is regarded as "black" in the USA, because in our German terminology of "non-whites", she would be regarded as an "almost-white" with origins from different continents but no one in Germany would call her "black".
Why is this still so different in the USA?

 

[Barbaria1]

There are and probably there will always be movies of which we cannot really understand why they were made. During the late 1960's and early 1970's, there were also "cannibal"-movies, no one really knew why they were made - except that some persons could proudly say they saw the whole movie without getting sick.
By the way "saw", there are some sequels to "Saw" of which I do not understand why there are still persons who wait for "Saw VI" or "Saw VII".

Another question, there was just a mentioning of the book "Caste" in a parallel thread, so I would like to ask something I do not really understand about the relation between different colors of human beings in the USA. Even in the worst times of German history, there was this almost typical crazy German urge for perfection in planning the future of nations, cataloging human beings and races etc.
For example, there was not only the distinction between races but also the cataloging in how much someone belonged to another race. I think, I once heard of one German chancellor (Helmut Schmidt?), according to the Nazis, this chancellor would have had a grandmother who was 1/4 Jewish. Today, every German would say: "Hääh? What does this now mean and how much is this of interest for anyone if my grandmother was of one fourth Jewish origin when we all are confirmed to be German? This is crazy!"
But in 1939, this could decide your life. You would not have been regarded to be Jewish or an enemy, but you probably would not have been able to make a career in Nazi Germany.

But even today, the Germans make very detailed distinctions in multiracial relations, for example only really black African persons are regarded by Germans as being "black", sometimes as "black German citizens" (typically correct long German description: "Deutscher Staatsangehöriger mit afrikanischem Migrationshintergrund") , Asians are not black but rather "yellow" and "Indians" from the USA are rather "red". There is also the very decisive distinction between "Indianer" (= "American Indians") and "Inder" (= "Indians from the real India") and many Germans are a bit confused when they read of the "Indian Air Force", because then they ask themselves since when the Navajos or Sioux have had their own Air Force!?!

In any case, no German really understands why Kamala Harris is regarded as "black" in the USA, because in our German terminology of "non-whites", she would be regarded as an "almost-white" with origins from different continents but no one in Germany would call her "black".
Why is this still so different in the USA?

This is addressed quite convincingly in the book “caste“.

 

[fallenmystic]

Of course, art should explore all kinds of topics and emotions, and the portrayal of Nazis in a serious, comedic or even absurd manner is not something new. However, I sometimes wonder what was even the point? Sexual content? I'd hardly find any of this sexually appealing.

I'd like to share my personal opinions as I find myself to be in a better position to answer this question, having certain fetishes which overlap those depicted in the aforementioned films.

I have to confess that the Nazi concentration camp type scenarios have been one of my favourite kinks, so I had once tried to watch several Nazi-sexploitation films. (The choice of the word "tried" isn't from the usual lapse in my comprehension of English grammar, by the way. I loved a few scenes in each of those films, but couldn't really finish watching any of them for the same reason why I wouldn't read a John Norman's book from cover to cover even though I love most of the settings from the Gorean saga.)

The main charm of such a scenario for me is how the girls are treated as subhuman beings, without empathy, and without any regard to their individual personality. They are all just a bunch of inferior creatures who can be stripped naked, examined, numbered, categorized, kept in a cage, abused, and eventually disposed of.

If you are one of such unfortunate girls, the guards don't care what kind of a person you are because you aren't even a person to them. You are just a resource, idenfied by the numbers tattooed on your arm. You are deemed useful only in terms of the strength in your muscles so that you can put to forced labour, or of whatever attraction your bared breasts or exposed pussy may have for those superior beings. They can use you as a sex toy if they get bored, and they will whip you or even kill you at any time they conclude your usefulness doesn't justify your upkeep (which probably comprises of a handful of gruel or food scraps they may throw at you).

That is why I love such a scenario. And of course, I don't claim that it can appeal to everyone because there is not a fetish that can satisfy every taste. But I suspect that I couldn't be the only one who feel it this way. If it was the case, then probably nobody would have made such films or watched them, so I know that there should be a few who share such particular fetish as mine.

 

[Servus Venandi]

However, I sometimes wonder what was even the point? Sexual content? I'd hardly find any of this sexually appealing. History? Most of it is not historically accurate in any way. Shock value? Honestly, it feels like it has to be shock value. However, this very specific genre, doesn't really hit the nail on the head by shocking us... the emotion it really evokes it's rather closer to being disturbing or even disgusting...slightly different from shocking. Now, some old Pulp magazine, portraying some sexy, half naked girls tied or captured by Germans, Japanese or Soviets is one thing, but to show a whole scene of torture, with abundant "blood" and even several rape scenes is taking it several steps further.

This very forum centers on crucifixion fantasy, when historical crucifixion arguably ranks among the cruelest things one human has ever done to another. Snuff and rape and other violent fantasies are things. Nazi exploitation sits well within the bounds of this fetish umbrella, IMO.

 

[Praefectus Praetorio]

I can think of a few residents and officals of the Republic of Singapore who might be offended by certain recent stories posted on this site...

. Actually, I've had a Singapore resident privately praise those stories (not publically for obvious fear of retaliation by certain powerful figures in the judiciary and the CNB).

In my humble opinion, this US-American-German comedy by the famous director Billy Wilder is one of the best political comedies of all times, unfortunately almost 40 years ahead of its time in making: 1961.

I saw One- Two - Three in the early Sixties and LOVED it. Cagney was at his comic best spitting out sets of orders to his German Staff (of questionable wartime employment), One..Two...Three, which gave the film its name.
As a fervent young Anti-Communist and Anti-Nazi (except for a fascination with those marvelous pulp magazines depicting tortures of scantily-clad, nubile women where I rooted for the Nazi torturers [purely in fantasy] - see http://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/revenge-of-the-pulps.7004/) I was rolling on the floor in laughter at the hilarious depiction of both.

 

[Silent_Water]

I saw One- Two - Three in the early Sixties and LOVED it. Cagney was at his comic best spitting out sets of orders to his German Staff (of questionable wartime employment), One..Two...Three, which gave the film its name.
As a fervent young Anti-Communist and Anti-Nazi (except for a fascination with those marvelous pulp magazines depicting tortures of scantily-clad, nubile women where I rooted for the Nazi torturers [purely in fantasy] - see http://www.cruxforums.com/xf/threads/revenge-of-the-pulps.7004/) I was rolling on the floor in laughter at the hilarious depiction of both.

Yes, but in Germany in 1961, the reaction to "1, 2, 3" was more than mixed because the Berlin wall was just built and people were really shot and killed at the wall.
Many would have liked to find the movie funny but often the reaction of the German audience to such really funny and great scenes like this one (nothing similar satirical about communism or capitalism was ever seen before in Germany !) ...

... was rather similar to this reaction:



Today, it is an extremely funny political satire - maybe the best of all times for us Germans, but in 1961 in the separated and even more divided Germany every day on the verge of a new possible war between East & West with the possible frontline right through the center of Germany, in was something like a "revolution in taste".

 

[Praefectus Praetorio]

Yes, but in Germany in 1961, the reaction to "1, 2, 3" was more than mixed because the Berlin wall was just built and people were really shot and killed at the wall.
Many would have liked to find the movie funny but often the reaction of the German audience to such really funny and great scenes like this one (nothing similar satirical about communism or capitalism was ever seen before in Germany !) ...

... was rather similar to this reaction:

View attachment 898895

Today, it is an extremely funny political satire - maybe the best of all times for us Germans, but in 1961 in the separated and even more divided Germany every day on the verge of a new possible war between East & West with the possible frontline right through the center of Germany, in was something like a "revolution in taste".

I now know how old I've gotten. I'd forgotten the Sabre Dance! So sexy for the time. That whole scene is hilarious and the multiple topical references are amazing. Pounding shoe, chess, Kruschev's picture over Stalin, the Russian car which in 1961 is an exact replica of 1937 Nash, Summit conference... it goes on and on.
And that's just one little scene!!

 

[AnimaSinistra]

I don't think these have been posted here before. They are not in any form erotic or BDSM drawings, but they are artwork about judicial punishment of women. The artist is Danzig Baldaev (1925-2002), collected in his postumously-published book "Drawings from the Gulag". The publisher's website is here, an interview with the publisher is here and a review from The Observer newspaper is here. I am somewhat wary of posting them, as they are subject of heated political discussions when posted in other forums and blogs which I specifically don't want to start here.

View attachment 897199View attachment 897200View attachment 897201View attachment 897202View attachment 897203View attachment 897204View attachment 897205View attachment 897206View attachment 897207View attachment 897208

I don't have the book, so I don't have translations of the Russian text on the images except for those where the images I've found have the original as well as the translations. In addition, I believe the last image translates as "Tell me now, you educated animal, about how you preached genetics, that bourgeois anti-Soviet ersatz science, in your university department, or you'll be breathing through your arsehole!"

This reminds me of Aleksandr Solzenicyn's GULAG Archipelago, in particular the chapters devoted to the interrogation techniques practised at Lubianka prison. There is also a chapter specifically devoted to the women detained in the lagers, but these illustrations are much worse.