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Slavery

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Now I would be really interested to get a quote for:
"Similar disturbing patterns of female abduction have been observed cross-culturally in archaeological excavations of mass graves dating back to prehistory""
because I have no idea what evidence he is talking about (and yes, I do have quite a good overview on publications in prehistoric archaeology).

This is, pardon, bullshit!
Does seem a bit farfetched ... raiding for women or bridal abductions are of course well attested ... but ummm from prehistoric mass graves!?

Maybe they are just creatively overinterpreting grave results that show a strong trend toward patrilocal patterns with very little Y-chromosome variance but lots of mitochondrial DNA variance. All that tells us though is that a community was exogamous, not that they necessarily did abduction. Could be but not known. And sure there are some genetic results that make a 'slavegirls and skullpiles' scenario plausible. But graves just don't show abduction...
 
Now I would be really interested to get a quote for:
"Similar disturbing patterns of female abduction have been observed cross-culturally in archaeological excavations of mass graves dating back to prehistory""
because I have no idea what evidence he is talking about (and yes, I do have quite a good overview on publications in prehistoric archaeology).

This is, pardon, bullshit!

Being it was a magazine article I have no idea what research he is referencing. If you are saying that you know of contrary archeological evidence then I'd suggest that you help us by posting references that would refute what he has stated. Just declaring it "bullshit" has no more validity than saying it is true.

However if you are saying that historically slave trading and raiding between cultural groups that included women as merchandise to be acquired going back to pre-history (as in written accounts) is not true then he is not the one shoveling ..............

I will concede that the use of the word "disturbing" is entirely inappropriate because it is applying modern morals to the situation instead of the prevailing morals of the time. It sometimes is necessary to point out to moral supremist that legalized institutional cultural acceptance of slavery and slaves has existed in human history, planet wide, for considerably more millennia than the current (approx) 200 year old concept that slavery is a moral evil.

kisses

willowfall
 
I have seen reports in archaeological journals where this has been suggested as a possible explanation for such burials - but there's always a tendency for journalists to turn a very tentative suggestion into a proven certainty.
 
Sorry, you misunderstood me.
I'm not saying that there is contrary evidence.
I'm just saying that there is no evidence at all that could support such an interpretation.
'Prehistory' is an extremely long period depending on the definition, of about 2 million years.
Even if we cut this to the times when we can expect social systems that might support 'slavery' whatever definition we want to use, let's say from Chalkolithic onward, there are still about 6 or 7 thousand years left.
Now, in this period, there are 'massgraves' in many regions in the world. With most of them there is no knowledge at all during how long a period people were buried there. So you don't know if it was 20 people who were buried there at once, or 1 every 10 years for a period of 200 years. And in most periods we are not able to detect chronological differences with this exactness.
This said some of the more recent excavations clearly could show that a considerable number of people was violently killed at a given time (Herxheim) and buried without detectable ritual. This would be a mass grave. Recently and very well excavated and very well published. The period 'Linearbandkeramik' seems a bit too early for slavery in my opinion, but we have a mass grave.
Still, it is somewhat problematic to differenciate between males and females, depending on the age of the deceased and how well the skeletons are preserved.

Now we have a mass grave, but we have zero knowledge about the social status of the people in there.
Nobody in all archaeology can give you a method to tell you that a buried person was a 'slave' (and nobody in all cultural sciences could give you a comprehensive definition what a 'slave' is, because the forms of slavery were extremely differnt over the regions and times)

Now, up to the present state of knowledge in archaeology and archaeological sciences there is no, repeat NO, bulletproof method to show that some of these people were local and others were not:
The 'traditional' archaeological method of looking at burial gifts that are not local, must not mean that the objects mean that their owners were not local.
The 'traditional' physical anthropological method of measuring the bones is proven wrong many, many times. I remember an excavation were the physical anthropologist 'clearly' identified two different groups, inevitably the 'gracile' locals and the robust foreigner (naturally from 'the North'). Then there came a palaeo-pathologist and found out that all these robust northerners were just locals, who died from malaria that has the effect of changing the structure of bones.
And today we have wonderful natural sciences, that spend millions of dollars, mostly to find answers were nobody ever had a question. Genetic analysis is perfectly useless to identify the geographical origin of people within close to middle range.
The most recent hype is the strontium analyses of teeth. It's a new method that might proove to be useful in coming years, up to now it is still ridden with uncertainties and technological/methodological problems. Remember the case of the Egtved girl? Two years ago they secured a lot of funding, because they could show that this young woman (of high status most probably) that was buried in Denmark, originally was born in Southwest Germany and before dying even travelled to and fro several times. There were even videos made ... after some months the videos disappeared and you did not here anything any more. Why? Well, the results were, sorry again bullshit, because the samples they analysed were contaminated ...

So, to sum up: according to *present state of research* there is no way to tell whether the remains of a bureid person were a 'slave'or not and there is no way to tell, whether a buried person was of local origin or not.
And that's everything you have to know, to know that evidence prooving " disturbing patterns of female abduction" is simply not existing, because our methods do not allow to identify such patterns.
 
I have seen reports in archaeological journals where this has been suggested as a possible explanation for such burials - but there's always a tendency for journalists to turn a very tentative suggestion into a proven certainty.
It is a very big problem for archaeologists to interpret burial customs that are different from our own ones.
The treating of dead people is something that, in every culture, is affected by so many customs, 'taboos' and rituals, that everything that is differing from our own way to treat the dead is almost inevitably seen negative.
When in Tibet dead people are brought to a gorge, the corpes cut open and left for the jackals and vultures this seems revolting to us. For those who do it it is a way to show respect to the circle of nature and ensure good karma for the deceased even after their death.

In many cultures graves are opened after some time and single bones are taken out. If not correctly excavated usually interpreted as people horribly slaughtered and chopped into pieces.

Other, more recent, cultures cremated their dead, mixed a bit of the ashes with water and drank it, so that the ancestors would stay with the living. Wahhh! cannibals!

These misinterpretations were very common up to the late 20th century, when archaeologists finally began to reflect their own role in interpretations. So, you will find hundreds of archaeological 'classics' that contain such interpretations. But nobody uses them anymore (well, except blood-thirsty journalists).
 
I'm referring (mainly) to recent reports by professional archaeologists in the very reputable British journal, Current Archaeology.
As I recall, they have been based mainly on the evidence of tooth enamel, which, notwithstanding some early mistakes, has proved a pretty reliable indication of origin for several years now.
 
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Sorry, you misunderstood me.
I'm not saying that there is contrary evidence.
I'm just saying that there is no evidence at all that could support such an interpretation.
'Prehistory' is an extremely long period depending on the definition, of about 2 million years.
Even if we cut this to the times when we can expect social systems that might support 'slavery' whatever definition we want to use, let's say from Chalkolithic onward, there are still about 6 or 7 thousand years left.
Now, in this period, there are 'massgraves' in many regions in the world. With most of them there is no knowledge at all during how long a period people were buried there. So you don't know if it was 20 people who were buried there at once, or 1 every 10 years for a period of 200 years. And in most periods we are not able to detect chronological differences with this exactness.
This said some of the more recent excavations clearly could show that a considerable number of people was violently killed at a given time (Herxheim) and buried without detectable ritual. This would be a mass grave. Recently and very well excavated and very well published. The period 'Linearbandkeramik' seems a bit too early for slavery in my opinion, but we have a mass grave.
Still, it is somewhat problematic to differenciate between males and females, depending on the age of the deceased and how well the skeletons are preserved.

Now we have a mass grave, but we have zero knowledge about the social status of the people in there.
Nobody in all archaeology can give you a method to tell you that a buried person was a 'slave' (and nobody in all cultural sciences could give you a comprehensive definition what a 'slave' is, because the forms of slavery were extremely differnt over the regions and times)

Now, up to the present state of knowledge in archaeology and archaeological sciences there is no, repeat NO, bulletproof method to show that some of these people were local and others were not:
The 'traditional' archaeological method of looking at burial gifts that are not local, must not mean that the objects mean that their owners were not local.
The 'traditional' physical anthropological method of measuring the bones is proven wrong many, many times. I remember an excavation were the physical anthropologist 'clearly' identified two different groups, inevitably the 'gracile' locals and the robust foreigner (naturally from 'the North'). Then there came a palaeo-pathologist and found out that all these robust northerners were just locals, who died from malaria that has the effect of changing the structure of bones.
And today we have wonderful natural sciences, that spend millions of dollars, mostly to find answers were nobody ever had a question. Genetic analysis is perfectly useless to identify the geographical origin of people within close to middle range.
The most recent hype is the strontium analyses of teeth. It's a new method that might proove to be useful in coming years, up to now it is still ridden with uncertainties and technological/methodological problems. Remember the case of the Egtved girl? Two years ago they secured a lot of funding, because they could show that this young woman (of high status most probably) that was buried in Denmark, originally was born in Southwest Germany and before dying even travelled to and fro several times. There were even videos made ... after some months the videos disappeared and you did not here anything any more. Why? Well, the results were, sorry again bullshit, because the samples they analysed were contaminated ...

So, to sum up: according to *present state of research* there is no way to tell whether the remains of a bureid person were a 'slave'or not and there is no way to tell, whether a buried person was of local origin or not.
And that's everything you have to know, to know that evidence prooving " disturbing patterns of female abduction" is simply not existing, because our methods do not allow to identify such patterns.

Thanks for the excellent reply. Historical interpretation is always subject to the bias of the interpreter.

My oldest brother loves to tell how when he was young archeologists with (what today would be called) a "progressive" mindset interpreted The Mayans as being a peaceful people who lived in harmony with nature.

Today we know that is far from the truth.

kisses

willowfall
 
I'm referring (mainly) to recent reports by professional archaeologists in the very reputable British journal, Current Archaeology.
As I recall, they have been based mainly on the evidence of tooth enamel, which, notwithstanding some early mistakes, has proved a pretty reliable indication of origin for several years now.
I know those.
And I'm editing some of the replies ... :)
 
For those interested in the rather dry but unluckily very real aspects of slavery:
 
Thanks for the excellent reply. Historical interpretation is always subject to the bias of the interpreter.

My oldest brother loves to tell how when he was young archeologists with (what today would be called) a "progressive" mindset interpreted The Mayans as being a peaceful people who lived in harmony with nature.

Today we know that is far from the truth.

kisses

willowfall
This jogged my memory. I remember seeing, I think it was a National Geographic article, about the Mayans and the misconceptions that they were a peaceful "at one with nature" people. The murals at Bonampak showed rather vividly that this was not the case.

One of the murals illustrates a battle scene and its aftermath.

bonampak2.pngbonampak1.png

The captives have been stripped and tortured (blood coming out of their fingertips--probably after having had their fingernails torn out) and prepared presumably for execution or sacrifice.
 
Slavery -Evening Entertainment.jpg
We are seeing a powerful contrast between the over-dressed women of high society and the self-conscious naked slave girls. The men seem to be taking a particular interest in the naked girls. The girl sitting between the dog and her mistress is a very neatly inserted figure, and she appears quite content to be receiving no attention at all. I have no idea what this painting was illustrating previously, but it makes a very attractive scene now. Nice work, GoatJr! :)
 
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