Das Fallbeil

[Barbaria1]

For a while they had a problem with wings breaking off their planes till one constructer started perforating the wings. He had remembered that their toilet paper rips everywhere only not there were it was perforated.
Sorry, couldn´t resist

Giggle snort

 

[Barbaria1]

That's also true. Soviet equipment often omitted safety aspects in their design, making production cheaper and easier.

Yep, why worry about safety ... it's a war, right?

I like those kind of discussion. May I sit in on it?

Sure. Barb won't be sitting for some time, so you can have her chair

 

[connoisseurs]

All that fancy stuff doesn't like little grains of sand in its interior.

Neither do I.

Of course, sand in its interior is nasty, but on it...

 

[Barbaria1]

Ummmmm ... hands off, please .... geeze!

 

[Horseman68]

why was it carried if all that is true?

Dear Barb. The Goddess interested in the technical details. Who knew. You have gotten some great info on the good and bad of the Luger 9mm and some of its history.

Most of us tend to agree that even with modern ammunition any given Luger must be carefully matched/tuned with the specific brand of ammo with which it works best for any degree of reliability. And, just because a pistol is supposedly zeroed in at 50m goes not mean one hit anything with it at that range.

As for your question. Would suspect that carrying the renowned German Luger would have been a status symbol for any self-impressed SS officer regardless of its faults — poor sights, trigger action, etc. Most of their shots at 1m to the back of the head? Would ask comments on that from those much more knowledgeable than this reader.

However, am reminded of a scene from “Schindler’s List.” If remember correctly, a man is on his knees in one of the camps waiting to be shot in back of the head. Three SS officers are behind him frustratedly trying to get a jammed Luger to fire. Finally the three walk away in disgust and just leave him.
Believe the real man’s grandchildren are shown at the end of the film?

 

[Barbaria1]

Dear Barb. The Goddess interested in the technical details. Who knew. You have gotten some great info on the good and bad of the Luger 9mm and some of its history.

Most of us tend to agree that even with modern ammunition any given Luger must be carefully matched/tuned with the specific brand of ammo with which it works best for any degree of reliability. And, just because a pistol is supposedly zeroed in at 50m goes not mean one hit anything with it at that range.

As for your question. Would suspect that carrying the renowned German Luger would have been a status symbol for any self-impressed SS officer regardless of its faults — poor sights, trigger action, etc. Most of their shots at 1m to the back of the head? Would ask comments on that from those much more knowledgeable than this reader.

However, am reminded of a scene from “Schindler’s List.” If remember correctly, a man is on his knees in one of the camps waiting to be shot in back of the head. Three SS officers are behind him frustratedly trying to get a jammed Luger to fire. Finally the three walk away in disgust and just leave him.
Believe the real man’s grandchildren are shown at the end of the film?

Interesting reply! Thanks for posting!

 

[Loxuru]

However, am reminded of a scene from “Schindler’s List.” If remember correctly, a man is on his knees in one of the camps waiting to be shot in back of the head. Three SS officers are behind him frustratedly trying to get a jammed Luger to fire. Finally the three walk away in disgust and just leave him.
Believe the real man’s grandchildren are shown at the end of the film?

I just reviewed that scene. Curiously, not one (a luger), but also a second pistol, of a different kind, jams. The scene is echoed at the end of the movie, in the hanging scene when Soviet officers fail to kick the stool from under the camp commander's feet.

Cheap production was not Always a guarantee for safe operation anyway. The British Sten Gun was easily assembled, but legendary for either jamming, or inadvertedly firing the whole magazine. I recall a first hand story when, during shooting practice, a Sten jammed. The soldier found no better than turning around ("Sergeant, it does not work!"), thereby pointing the weapon to the platoon waiting behind him, and meanwhile still pulling the trigger again and again. The sergeant had the good reaction to grab the barrel and push it downward, just in time, as suddenly, the whole magazine fired, luckily into the ground.

From my time in the military, I recall that particularly cheaper built machine pistols were less reliable, and usually, it were Always the same guns that caused trouble. Bad luck if you have to carry one in wartime.

 

[Barbaria1]

Cheap production was not Always a guarantee for safe operation anyway. The British Sten Gun was easily assembled, but legendary for either jamming, or inadvertedly firing the whole magazine. I recall a first hand story when, during shooting practice, a Sten jammed. The soldier found no better than turning around ("Sergeant, it does not work!"), thereby pointing the weapon to the platoon waiting behind him, and meanwhile still pulling the trigger again and again. The sergeant had the good reaction to grab the barrel and push it downward, just in time, as suddenly, the whole magazine fired, luckily into the ground.

Wow! Quite a story!!!

 

[bobinder]

However, am reminded of a scene from “Schindler’s List.” If remember correctly, a man is on his knees in one of the camps waiting to be shot in back of the head. Three SS officers are behind him frustratedly trying to get a jammed Luger to fire. Finally the three walk away in disgust and just leave him.
Believe the real man’s grandchildren are shown at the end of the film?

I just reviewed that scene. Curiously, not one (a luger), but also a second pistol, of a different kind, jams.

Ralph Fiennes as Amon Goeth in 'Schindler’s List'.
Here he is attempting in vain to fire the second pistol (not a Luger.)



As noted, the intended victim survives.

 

[Barbaria1]

Ralph Fiennes as Amon Goeth in 'Schindler’s List'.
Here he is attempting in vain to fire the second pistol (not a Luger.)

View attachment 640141

As noted, the intended victim survives.

Mmmmmm ...spellbinding movie!

 

[Praefectus Praetorio]

Geeze ... it was only a ricochet ... people should have ducked!



I'm sure that's correct about the bombing and sabotage. From what I have been just reading it sounds as though German military hardware suffered in general from being too sophisticated (thus vulnerable to battlefield breakdown and malfunction, in addition to more expensive to produce in quantity) as compared to the simpler but more reliable Soviet equipment.

I remember in getting my MBA, the Management professor talked about Albert Speer discussing using slave labor in munitions plants during the war. The SS decided that women laborers with smaller hands were ideal for assembling fuses for bombs. And if the highly dangerous item exploded during manufacture, it would be a worthless slave who was injured or killed.

However, productively from the fuse plants was terrible and got worse, so Speer, in overall command of wartime production, though not SS, went to examine the plant. It turned out that it was very easy for a worker to sabotage the fuse during assembly so that it was a dud. The SS's first brilliant idea was to test first every other fuse. However, this meant production after testing was cut by 50%. So instead they tried increasing the number of guards watching the assembly. This had no effect at first because the guards stood so far away for safety that even with increased numbers they saw nothing. So the guards were ordered to get right by the worker to watch. This, however, meant that injuries among guards increased. And it still didn't make a major impact on the # of duds. The workers, of course only sabotaged when a guard was elsewhere. So the number of guards was increased. When Speer arrived at the plant, he found there was one SS guard for each worker, standing right by the worker with his face close to the fuse. The number of duds was reduced by 80%. But the cost of the plant was now a full complement of full cost personnel (the guards) and a full complement of low cost personnel (the slaves). And the slaves even under close supervision only worked on average at 75% efficiency and 20% were duds (and a dud fuse meant a dud bomb, costing much more than the fuse).

The Management professor drew two lessons of the class from this. One, under-motivated or dissatisfied workers are particularly bad in high-tech work. Two, the SS management was so blinded by its ideas of power and control that they were amazingly stupid in the implementation. (German efficiency is not always reamarkable)

 

[Barbaria1]

This, however, meant that injuries among guards increased. And it still didn't make a major impact on the # of duds. The workers, of course only sabotaged when a guard was elsewhere. So the number of guards was increased.

Saw that coming. So logical it was dumb

 

[Horseman68]

Loxuru. Remind me to stay away from Stens. Not remembering if ever even held one; my worst was continuous with the old M-16.

Strange the track that this thread has taken from Barbaria’s poignant little story. But can not leave this historical and technological theme of reliable (or not) weapons, without homage to the success, now over seventy years ago, that changed the face of our world today. The mass-produced “people’s gun,” the Avtomat Kalashnikov assault rife — the AK-47.

While can be said that the Maxim machine gun allowed European nations to subjugate indigenous peoples around the world, so has the AK-47 allowed them to fight back with a vengeance.

Am sure beautiful Barbaria is bored with this. Will now return to more sensual pursuits.

 

[Barbaria1]

Am sure beautiful Barbaria is bored with this. Will now return to more sensual pursuits.

I don’t find it boring. I’m always amazed at how much one learns from discussions that appear here on CF. And this one flows naturally enough from the original story. Do continue.

 

[Loxuru]

Am sure beautiful Barbaria is bored with this. Will now return to more sensual pursuits.

But not before we have given Dieter an MP40 (aka Schmeisser) submachine gun instead, to see what alternative ending he will work out then!

 

[Barbaria1]

View attachment 640274
But not before we have given Dieter an MP40 (aka Schmeisser) submachine gun instead, to see what alternative ending he will work out then!

Barb fears she could become collateral damage. Not exactly a precision solution to taking out the bad guys!

 

[connoisseurs]

Barb fears she could become collateral damage. Not exactly a precision solution to taking out the bad guys!

From chipping comes chips

 

[Barbaria1]

. Not remembering if ever even held one; my worst was continuous with the old M-16

So what’s the story with that one?

 

[Horseman68]

I remember in getting my MBA, the Management professor talked about Albert Speer discussing using slave labor in munitions plants during the war. The SS decided that women laborers with smaller hands were ideal for assembling fuses for bombs. And if the highly dangerous item exploded during manufacture, it would be a worthless slave who was injured or killed.

However, productively from the fuse plants was terrible and got worse, so Speer, in overall command of wartime production, though not SS, went to examine the plant. It turned out that it was very easy for a worker to sabotage the fuse during assembly so that it was a dud. The SS's first brilliant idea was to test first every other fuse. However, this meant production after testing was cut by 50%. So instead they tried increasing the number of guards watching the assembly. This had no effect at first because the guards stood so far away for safety that even with increased numbers they saw nothing. So the guards were ordered to get right by the worker to watch. This, however, meant that injuries among guards increased. And it still didn't make a major impact on the # of duds. The workers, of course only sabotaged when a guard was elsewhere. So the number of guards was increased. When Speer arrived at the plant, he found there was one SS guard for each worker, standing right by the worker with his face close to the fuse. The number of duds was reduced by 80%. But the cost of the plant was now a full complement of full cost personnel (the guards) and a full complement of low cost personnel (the slaves). And the slaves even under close supervision only worked on average at 75% efficiency and 20% were duds (and a dud fuse meant a dud bomb, costing much more than the fuse).

The Management professor drew two lessons of the class from this. One, under-motivated or dissatisfied workers are particularly bad in high-tech work. Two, the SS management was so blinded by its ideas of power and control that they were amazingly stupid in the implementation. (German efficiency is not always reamarkable)

Well, since beautiful Barbaria seems still interested.

Praefectus Praetoria. Would have much different lesson than that of the management professor. My lesson is that even when reduced to slavery and facing death, a proud and courageous people will find a way to fight back.

Very much like to imagine how many lives, unknowingly to themselves, were saved by those dud fuses and the nameless brave individuals who made them so.

Moreover, can easily correlate that bravery to the responses of some of our ladies often subjects here in our crucifixion scenes.

 

[bobinder]

But not before we have given Dieter an MP40 (aka Schmeisser) submachine gun instead, to see what alternative ending he will work out then!

Barb fears she could become collateral damage. Not exactly a precision solution to taking out the bad guys!

As the picture shows Clint Eastwood, undercover, in 'Where Eagles Dare', you have to ask yourself one question.
'Do I feel lucky?'