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Odds And Ends And Anything You Fancy
- Thread starter Eulalia
- Start date
Praefectus Praetorio
R.I.P. Brother of the Quill
I forgot about that, Thank you, --- what was your name again?
RacingRodent
Consul
Actually there was some scary stuff about the level of ignorance in the UK with a recent survey showing some 5% of people did not even know what the Holocaust was.
trickydicky4u
Governor
Lamentably, as the older generations shuffle from the mortal coil, these horrors become less relevant to those left.
TBH only 5% is bloody good going if you ask me!
Loxuru
Graf von Kreuzigung
Probably even less people remember that the naming 'Holocaust' comes from a TV series with the same name, broadcasted in 1978. Weird, how a dramatisation of the events, basically intended as 'entertainment', gave them its now widespread name.
Are you sure???
I heared this teminus first from the TV serie. In the GDR we used Völkermord an den Juden - Jewish Genocide.
I heard it from a nun in grade school... I had no idea what she was talking about....
Loxuru
Graf von Kreuzigung
The word seems to have existed already in small scientific communities studying the extermination of Jews by the Nazis. But all sources indicate that its popularisation and widespread use is due to the 1978 miniseries.
It's not certain exactly when or by whom first, but the phrase 'a holocaust'
(from the Greek word meaning 'whole burning', i.e. sacrifice of large numbers of animals)
was being used even before the end of the war to describe what was coming to light
in the death camps. It had become 'The Holocaust' in general use (especially journalism)
well before 1978. The preferred term in Hebrew is of course 'Shoah', 'catastrophe'.
(from the Greek word meaning 'whole burning', i.e. sacrifice of large numbers of animals)
was being used even before the end of the war to describe what was coming to light
in the death camps. It had become 'The Holocaust' in general use (especially journalism)
well before 1978. The preferred term in Hebrew is of course 'Shoah', 'catastrophe'.
malins
Stumbling Seeker
As Eulalia says the usage of the term in that context is definitely older than the TV series and in fact there are documented usages referring to the Jews' situation in Europe in the 1930s using that word.
It's also true that before the TV series in German-speaking countries Völkermord was most commonly used, and Holocaust was virtually unknown,at least in general public usage.
Then Völkermord got gradually replaced by 'Holocaust', which, in the German tongue, uses the english-pronounced and spelled rendering of a greek-derived word. If it had been adopted into German right from the Greek it would be spelled and pronounced according to the rules how we use Greek loanwords, but it isn't. It's used as an English loanword. That's definitely due to the TV series.
A German word like Völkermord can't be sanitized, as the word roots are viscerally native, and intent and agency of the perpetrators aren't removed.
Replacing that with a double-removed foreign word turns it into something remote and abstract, as if it was some event directed by fate, and not a deed consciously committed by actual people, inflicted upon real people.
And this replacement very certainly happened in the wake of the TV series, and was mostly a Western phenomenon. There's a lot of etymological psychology going on there.
As a child I learned about it with the old word, and then that word got replaced. I can remember.
Eva Inanna
Governor
There is a good article about the use of “holocaust” to describe the genocide of the Jewish people in https://english.stackexchange.com/q...o-refer-to-the-nazi-final-solution-for-the-je
It would seem that the first use of the word to signify the Nazi crime may have been in 1942 in the UK’s News Chronicle: “Holocaust . . . Nothing else in Hitler's record is comparable to his treatment of the Jews . . . The word has gone forth that . . . the Jewish peoples are to be exterminated . . . The conscience of humanity stands aghast” (5 Dec 1942)
Earlier references to the genocide may have used “holocaust” in the wider context of the destruction caused by the war and not specifically address to the extermination of Jews.
To signify genocide, the word perhaps it was first used by Winston Churchill to refer to the extermination of the Armenian people at the hands of the Turks (https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/e...meaning_n_1229043?ec_carp=1955455902867496847)
As malins express it so eloquently, holocaust “turns it into something remote and abstract, as if it was some event directed by fate, and not a deed consciously committed by actual people, inflicted upon real people.”
One would prefer a less sanitized word, perhaps Shoah (שואה), if words can ever convey the horror of the Völkermord an den Juden.
It would seem that the first use of the word to signify the Nazi crime may have been in 1942 in the UK’s News Chronicle: “Holocaust . . . Nothing else in Hitler's record is comparable to his treatment of the Jews . . . The word has gone forth that . . . the Jewish peoples are to be exterminated . . . The conscience of humanity stands aghast” (5 Dec 1942)
Earlier references to the genocide may have used “holocaust” in the wider context of the destruction caused by the war and not specifically address to the extermination of Jews.
To signify genocide, the word perhaps it was first used by Winston Churchill to refer to the extermination of the Armenian people at the hands of the Turks (https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/e...meaning_n_1229043?ec_carp=1955455902867496847)
As malins express it so eloquently, holocaust “turns it into something remote and abstract, as if it was some event directed by fate, and not a deed consciously committed by actual people, inflicted upon real people.”
One would prefer a less sanitized word, perhaps Shoah (שואה), if words can ever convey the horror of the Völkermord an den Juden.
Right on!
If I may I would like to remind everyone that the number of people murdered by the Nazis exceeded the 6 Million we have become so accustomed to hearing about. The most of Polish Army was executed in addition to the entire intelligentsia of that nation; at least 2 million. 500,000 Gypsies were murdered almost completely removing the entire population from Europe; the only exception was Russia, the Nazis couldn't get at them. By the way Russians do not like the term Nazi (National Socialist Workers Party) because they were/are socialists they called them Hitlerites and these Hitlerites killed more the 20 million Russians perhaps as many as 35 million. When the Nazis captured members of the Russian armed forces the Bastards starved them to death.
Call it what you will; Nazi Germany committed the greatest crime recorded in all of history.
The study of history is my calling especially WW II.
Helmut
Call it what you will; Nazi Germany committed the greatest crime recorded in all of history.
The study of history is my calling especially WW II.
Helmut
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Praefectus Praetorio
R.I.P. Brother of the Quill
I am in complete agreement with your points. I would add - what did the Russians do with captured German soldiers (and later civilian)?
connoisseurs
Senator
Although in every war there are a few people who try to stay human and to empathize, thats not the norm. Every country in each war ever fought, has had their share of unhuman beasts and many if not all countrys have events to be ashamed of. While one could say that the high count of killed people in WWII is based on the advanced technology, the way Germany killed methodicaly whole groups of people has been never been seen before or since than in such a magnitude (though genocid was not new). War crimes of other nations does neither reduce this infamous conduct nor allows it any excuse.
That said I want to clarify that I don´t believe in hereditary sin but see the past of my nation as a memorial to prevent a repetition.
That said I want to clarify that I don´t believe in hereditary sin but see the past of my nation as a memorial to prevent a repetition.
What would you have them do? Who invaded Whom?
Also my Grand parents where Polish and Lithuanian perhaps this bit of info will help clear things up.
Helmut
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Naraku
Draconarius
Not mention an unknown number of homosexual or alleged homosexual men.
https://www.ushmm.org/learn/student...ms-of-the-nazi-era/persecution-of-homosexuals
jacksjg89
PROCRASTINATOR
Don’t want to descend into “Both sides(ism)” because seriously, fuck the Hitlerites, however, I found This article after listening to A podcast about the Eastern Front. It details many of the majors atrocities of the war, mostly all German until you get to “Gang Rape of Nemmersdorf” and “Revenge at Neustettin.” Some of the descriptions in there sounds like something one of our writers would come up with:
“From buildings, Russian signs were hung which read 'Soldiers! Majdanek does not forgive. Take revenge without mercy!'. When the Soviet 4th Army took over the town five days later, hardly a single inhabitant remained alive. Women were found nailed to barn doors after being stripped naked and gang raped, their bodies then used for bayonet practice.”
Other parts of the article are not suitable for here. Doesn’t excuse the Germans, but anyone is capable of acts of atrocities. I think that we can say that the difference here is that the holocaust was organized by the top of the Nazi leadership where as this is just simply bloodlust.
Don’t claim to be an expert on this either. WW1 is more my field.