it is a dutch saying about elephants and so I'll explain it laterwell there's different things to see in that image- make of it what you will
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Fem Warriors Agains The Romans And All.
- Thread starter Pippajayne
- Start date
M
montycrusto
Guest
I love a bit of Achilleos! Good Find, RR
malins
Stumbling Seeker
They really have a historical fate of having to do that... driving back Chinese invaders, and invaders in general...
M
montycrusto
Guest
Perhaps Boudicca could have done with a few elephants...
malins
Stumbling Seeker
Hannibal already had a hard time getting them to where he wanted to go.
Don't they say 'white elephant' for something the cost of which far exceeds its utility?
Elephants in England might fall into that category...
M
montycrusto
Guest
Yes indeed! Emperor Claudius brought a bunch of elephants to Britain in the mid-40's AD; Boudicca might even have seen them in Colchester. I don't think they stayed long; probably started wheezing asthmatically in the legendary British weather
malins
Stumbling Seeker
Oh those archers that are supposed to cover that flank?
It's true, they are very still.
Almost unnoticeable.
As they lie there, their throats having been silently slit...
It was a misfortune for this colum to enter our woods. They will not be able to tell of it, perhaps others will come to look for them?
That's wrong of course.
Nothing in battle is certain, indeed,
though what's commonly true in battle is,
Kein Operationsplan reicht mit einiger Sicherheit über das erste Zusammentreffen mit der feindlichen Hauptmacht hinaus.
(Moltke the Elder, 1871, usually falsifyingly condensed in English to 'no plan survives contact with the enemy')
(Moltke the Elder, 1871, usually falsifyingly condensed in English to 'no plan survives contact with the enemy')
what's entirely certain in this life however is,
Death,
(no Sir Jollyrei, that is NOT your cue)
(no Sir Jollyrei, that is NOT your cue)
which brings me back to her:
She knows well of the many victories the Empire has won through their discipline and doctrine.
In fact some of the men now following her served before with the Empire, and not only as footsoldiers.
Recently many Imperial victories have seemed hollow.
However, more than adapting their doctrine, they have rather shifted their definition of 'victory'...
... to mean 'whatever is the outcome when we use our doctrine'.
Some in the Senate had voiced their concern, that great acheivements of the legions had after a few years turned out to be deeply regrettable but irreversible miscalculations, wastes of blood and treasure; that a number of celebrated victories against well-known enemies resulted in nothing but new, more dangerous, unpredictable and amorphous enemies taking their place. Enemies that now even brazenly raided the Imperial heartland.
The Emperor silenced these voices.
The Empire's enemies silently smiled.
When this Warrior Queen puts her life and her trust in the Gods and Goddesses of her people,
she knows that the desire of her heart is for Vengeance and Victory,
but it's hubris to ask the earth and sky for the gift of victory.
In humility, she pleads for the gift of Death.
But for this she asks in plenty.
If they so will,
Death for all and everyone.
If it's their whim, some will live at the end of they day.
If it's her and her people who live,
she's willing to accept that heavy burden,
Because it will mean, she must fight again.
The voracious Empire will not be dissuaded by one defeat.
One might wonder what the Imperial Commander would think if he could look in her eyes at that moment.
Would he say, "Look at the Mad Queen, leading her followers to certain doom"?
Or would his certainty waver for the tiniest moment?
No one would ever know.
The Imperial Commander had his duty and his discipline and his doctrine.
He had his own gods too, and things he asked of them.
But, he was marching far, far from where those gods are at home that day...
Naraku
Draconarius
The elephants used by Hannibal & Claudius was the North African elephant, which became extinct sometime during the Roman era. These were smaller than other African breeds - about 8 feet (2.5m) at the shoulder - and, apparently much easier to tame. Still, they would have been big enough to scare the piss out of the British.Yes indeed! Emperor Claudius brought a bunch of elephants to Britain in the mid-40's AD; Boudicca might even have seen them in Colchester. I don't think they stayed long; probably started wheezing asthmatically in the legendary British weather
Elephants wouldn't have been happy in Britain, although the climate was warmer in the first century, but they could still be effective. Hannibal got enough of his elephants across the Alps to use them against the Romans at the Battle of Trebia.
These same type of elephants would have been used in the Arena, both for beast hunts and, most likely for executions.
M
montycrusto
Guest
Beautiful and tragic writing Malin.
For the Warrior Queen, to die well is also a victory.
To win the battle would be only to postpone that moment of destiny.
So she faces annihilation with as much courage as she can muster.
The trees, the birds, the river all speak to her of life.
She sees only the gathering clouds and hears the tramp of distant feet.
An army of hollow men approaching, hollow shells of men,
legions of an empire hollowed out by centuries of greed.
The day is not decided, the woods and fields not yet painted with blood.
She will rouse herself from her trance, rouse her troops,
and lead them to the place where fate turns on the fall of a single arrow,
the twist of a knife, or the thrust of a spear.
Whatever happens, this day will never be forgotten.
M
montycrusto
Guest
Steady on, those are my woad-painted ancestors you're talking about.. it takes more than a couple of fat, asthmatic elephants to... hang on, those things are coming this way... RUN!!!
M
montycrusto
Guest
a great picture of Trieu Thi Trinh, by Tessa Broek.
full of vigour and texture;
the elephant's trunk echoed by Trieu's braid
is a nice touch
http://tessabroek.com/digital-art/
RacingRodent
Consul
Ah ancestors well if you want Anglo-Saxon Ancestors (for those folk lucky enough to have them
) then a real life warrior Queen was Aethelflaed of Mercia seen here by various artists in a range from fantasy to practical 
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malins
Stumbling Seeker
Anglo-Saxon history isn't my strength at all, but Wikipedia mentions her as ... a formidable military leader and tactician .. she began to plan and build a series of fortresses in English Mercia, ten of which can be identified...
Another cliché besides 'see-through armor' tends to be that warrior queens ought to be very young; with the dates given she might have been already in her forties when she took leadership. I'd also assume that she was more of a planner and leader, than hacking at the enemy with a sword in the first row of battle. That would really be asking for instant defeat (a middle-aged woman with probably no prior training, in hand to hand combat with young men dedicated to the art of war? really?) - so my guess would be, take picture #2, drop the sword (except perhaps a symbolic one) and make her older, and that might be realistic
M
montycrusto
Guest
Florine of Burgundy could lead the cavalry charge
(illustration by Gustave Doré)
RacingRodent
Consul
Anglo-Saxon history isn't my strength at all, but Wikipedia mentions her as ... a formidable military leader and tactician .. she began to plan and build a series of fortresses in English Mercia, ten of which can be identified...
Another cliché besides 'see-through armor' tends to be that warrior queens ought to be very young; with the dates given she might have been already in her forties when she took leadership. I'd also assume that she was more of a planner and leader, than hacking at the enemy with a sword in the first row of battle. That would really be asking for instant defeat (a middle-aged woman with probably no prior training, in hand to hand combat with young men dedicated to the art of war? really?) - so my guess would be, take picture #2, drop the sword (except perhaps a symbolic one) and make her older, and that might be realistic
Well while I would agree with the idea she was probably more of a planner than an accomplished warrior a lot of the same could be said for many 'warrior' kings. Could she have worn armour and stood in the front ranks of battle? Likely yes. You do not actually have to be a terribly good warrior but if you want troops to follow you then you need to appear to be enduring the same level of risk as them.
This probably went double for a woman.
However the front rank of a battle line is not necessarily as dangerous a place as people familiar only with modern combat and Hollywood depictions of pre-modern combat suppose. For a start the Anglo-Saxons made really good quality armour, in fact they made really good quality just about everything that is why so many folks were interested in invading them and unlike in Hollywood body armour was worn because it works.
Being a Queen Aethelflaed would have been able to afford the very best armour, something like the depiction in the third pic is not impossible save her shield (and all the shields) would have been a heck of a lot bigger.
In addition she would have had on either side of her the concentrated best motivated and top performing killers...not simply warriors but the actual guys who on the battlefield did a disproportionate amount of killing...in all of Mercia. Their job would have been to keep her safe...it was quite acceptable for the leader to have excellent bodyguards.
Would Aethelfled quite possibly have never struck more than the kind of blows that anyone familiar with melee fighting will be aware of that are actually struck more to stop the other guy getting in a clear strike than to actually hurt him? Probably but entirely possible even likely she would have been found in the front ranks.
malins
Stumbling Seeker
That sounds like it would work
Women Warriors in Scotland - wha's like us?
In 1297 the Countess of Ross led her own troops during William Wallace and Andrew de Moray's battles with the English.
Isabelle of England: (A.D. 1285?-1313?) Daughter of Phillippe le Bel of France, wife of Edward II of England. She took up arms against her husband and his supporters. When Edward III came to the throne, he forced Isabelle to flee to Scotland, where, during the ensuing war, she travelled with a defending troop of like-spirited women including two sisters of Nigel and Robert Bruce (Isobel, Countess of Buchan, and Christian, Lady Bruce). Against this troop of noblewomen, Edward issued a formal proscription. He did capture several and imprison them. Isabelle he forced to retire to a convent life lest she try further conquests.
Isobel, Countess of Buchan: (A.D. 1296-1358) Isobel MacDuff left her husband, the Earl of Buchan (Taking the finest warhorses with her), to fight for the Bruce, a cause of which her husband did not approve. The earl went as far as to issue a warrant for her death. Captured by Edward and taken to England, the countess of Buchan was imprisoned in a small cage for four years. She afterwards retired to convent life.
Christian, Lady Bruce: Sister of Robert I. During the Wars of Independence and the reign of Edward I, Lady Bruce defended Kildrummy Castle when it was besieged by David of Strathbogie, who served English interests. Strathbogie fell in battle, and it was left to his widow to defend (for seven months) the island fortress of Lochindorb against three thousand vengeful Scots.
Christian's sisters Marjory Bruce and Mary Bruce were also warlike, as was that grotesquely punished Bruce supporter Isobel, Countess of Buchan.
Black Agnes: Lady Agnes Randolph (A.D. 1300?-1369?), wife of Patrick the fourth earl of Dunbar and the second earl of March. In her youth, she fought for the Bruce, but is better remembered for the later defense of her castle. In 1334, Black Agnes daughter of the great Randolf, earl of Moray, successfully held her castle at Dunbar against the besieging forces of England's Earl of Salisbury for over five months, despite the unusual number of engineers and elaborate equipment brought against her. After each assault on her fortress, her maids dusted the merlins and crenels, treating her foes and the dreadful siege as a tiresome jest.
She is celebrated in a folk song attributed to Salisbury:
"She kept a stir in tower and trench,
That brawling, boisterous Scottish wench,
Came I early, came I late
I found Agnes at the gate."
Sir Walter Scott said, 'From the record of Scottish heroes, none can presume to erase her.' "
Lilliard led the Scots at the Battle of Ancrum in 1545 She killed the English commander but was killed herself later in the battle.
The Scots army which marched on Newcastle in 1644 during the English Civil War is reported to have included women regular soldiers.
Jean (Jenny) Cameron of Glendessary raised 300 men and led them to the raising of the Jacobite standard in Scotland on 19th August 1745
Lady Anne Macintosh (also known as Anne Farquharson of Invercauld and Colonel Anne) was married to the Laird of Macintosh who supported the Hannoverians during the Jacobite rising in Scotland in 1745-6. Anne sided with the Jacobites and raised several hundred men to fight for them, although she never led her men into battle herself. At various points both she and her husband were captured and were released into each others' custody.
Lady Lude fired the first shot of the Jacobite attack on Blair Castle, Scotland. This was her own family home and had been taken over by the Hanoverians.
Lady Margaret Oglivy and Margaret Murray (or Fergusson) accompanied their husbands who were officers in Bonnie Prince Charlie's (Prince Charles Edward Stewart or The Young Pretender of Scotland) army in 1745-6. Mrs Murray is reputed to have been directly involved in seizing horses and money for the army.
In 1297 the Countess of Ross led her own troops during William Wallace and Andrew de Moray's battles with the English.
Isabelle of England: (A.D. 1285?-1313?) Daughter of Phillippe le Bel of France, wife of Edward II of England. She took up arms against her husband and his supporters. When Edward III came to the throne, he forced Isabelle to flee to Scotland, where, during the ensuing war, she travelled with a defending troop of like-spirited women including two sisters of Nigel and Robert Bruce (Isobel, Countess of Buchan, and Christian, Lady Bruce). Against this troop of noblewomen, Edward issued a formal proscription. He did capture several and imprison them. Isabelle he forced to retire to a convent life lest she try further conquests.
Isobel, Countess of Buchan: (A.D. 1296-1358) Isobel MacDuff left her husband, the Earl of Buchan (Taking the finest warhorses with her), to fight for the Bruce, a cause of which her husband did not approve. The earl went as far as to issue a warrant for her death. Captured by Edward and taken to England, the countess of Buchan was imprisoned in a small cage for four years. She afterwards retired to convent life.
Christian, Lady Bruce: Sister of Robert I. During the Wars of Independence and the reign of Edward I, Lady Bruce defended Kildrummy Castle when it was besieged by David of Strathbogie, who served English interests. Strathbogie fell in battle, and it was left to his widow to defend (for seven months) the island fortress of Lochindorb against three thousand vengeful Scots.
Christian's sisters Marjory Bruce and Mary Bruce were also warlike, as was that grotesquely punished Bruce supporter Isobel, Countess of Buchan.
Black Agnes: Lady Agnes Randolph (A.D. 1300?-1369?), wife of Patrick the fourth earl of Dunbar and the second earl of March. In her youth, she fought for the Bruce, but is better remembered for the later defense of her castle. In 1334, Black Agnes daughter of the great Randolf, earl of Moray, successfully held her castle at Dunbar against the besieging forces of England's Earl of Salisbury for over five months, despite the unusual number of engineers and elaborate equipment brought against her. After each assault on her fortress, her maids dusted the merlins and crenels, treating her foes and the dreadful siege as a tiresome jest.
She is celebrated in a folk song attributed to Salisbury:
"She kept a stir in tower and trench,
That brawling, boisterous Scottish wench,
Came I early, came I late
I found Agnes at the gate."
Sir Walter Scott said, 'From the record of Scottish heroes, none can presume to erase her.' "
Lilliard led the Scots at the Battle of Ancrum in 1545 She killed the English commander but was killed herself later in the battle.
The Scots army which marched on Newcastle in 1644 during the English Civil War is reported to have included women regular soldiers.
Jean (Jenny) Cameron of Glendessary raised 300 men and led them to the raising of the Jacobite standard in Scotland on 19th August 1745
Lady Anne Macintosh (also known as Anne Farquharson of Invercauld and Colonel Anne) was married to the Laird of Macintosh who supported the Hannoverians during the Jacobite rising in Scotland in 1745-6. Anne sided with the Jacobites and raised several hundred men to fight for them, although she never led her men into battle herself. At various points both she and her husband were captured and were released into each others' custody.
Lady Lude fired the first shot of the Jacobite attack on Blair Castle, Scotland. This was her own family home and had been taken over by the Hanoverians.
Lady Margaret Oglivy and Margaret Murray (or Fergusson) accompanied their husbands who were officers in Bonnie Prince Charlie's (Prince Charles Edward Stewart or The Young Pretender of Scotland) army in 1745-6. Mrs Murray is reputed to have been directly involved in seizing horses and money for the army.
M
montycrusto
Guest
Ah ancestors well if you want Anglo-Saxon Ancestors (for those folk lucky enough to have them
Excellent.
Thanks for the images RR! There's a huge stylistic difference between the first and second of your pics. I think the second is more authentic Not technically a queen, Aethelflaed was know as the Lady of the Mercians. Her father was Alfred the Great, king of Wessex, and it's likely that if Wikipedia says :
then it was as part of her father's larger project to fortify his kingdom and resist the Danes. Alfred famously created a network of fortified towns and strongholds across his kingdom to combat the invading Danes, listed in the contemporary document known as the Burghal Hidage.
Mercia had been a kingdom, but by Alfred's time Wessex was the only Anglo Saxon kingdom to survive the Norse invasions.
You can't know how wonderful it is typing the words "burghal hidage" here! At one time many years ago it took up a significant chunk of my life!
(ok sad history geek slinks off stage right)
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messaline
Crucified Amazon
As we're in History, everybody know "Jeanne d'Arc" but who knows "Jeanne Hachette" ?
Not really a warrior'woman but ,in one occasion, she knew to be !
Jeanne Hachette
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bronze statue of Jeanne Hachette in Beauvais, by Gabriel-Vital Dubray
Jeanne Laisné (born 1456) was a French heroine known as Jeanne Fourquet and nicknamed Jeanne Hachette ('Jean the Hatchet'). She was the daughter of a peasant. [1]
All that she is currently known for is an act of heroism on 27 June 1472, when she prevented the capture of Beauvais by the troops of Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy. The town was defended by only 300 men-at-arms, commanded by Louis de Balagny.
The Burgundians were making an assault, and one of their number had actually planted a flag upon the battlements, when Jeanne, axe in hand, flung herself upon him, hurled him into the moat, tore down the flag, and revived the drooping courage of the garrison. In gratitude for this heroic deed, Louis XI instituted a procession in Beauvais called the "Procession of the Assault", and married Jeanne to her chosen lover Colin Pilon, loading them with favours.[2] As of 1907, there was still an annual religious procession on 27 June through the streets of Beauvais to commemorate Jeanne's deed. [3]
And the only oeuvre existing about her , I think ...
Not really a warrior'woman but ,in one occasion, she knew to be !
Jeanne Hachette
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bronze statue of Jeanne Hachette in Beauvais, by Gabriel-Vital Dubray
Jeanne Laisné (born 1456) was a French heroine known as Jeanne Fourquet and nicknamed Jeanne Hachette ('Jean the Hatchet'). She was the daughter of a peasant. [1]
All that she is currently known for is an act of heroism on 27 June 1472, when she prevented the capture of Beauvais by the troops of Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy. The town was defended by only 300 men-at-arms, commanded by Louis de Balagny.
The Burgundians were making an assault, and one of their number had actually planted a flag upon the battlements, when Jeanne, axe in hand, flung herself upon him, hurled him into the moat, tore down the flag, and revived the drooping courage of the garrison. In gratitude for this heroic deed, Louis XI instituted a procession in Beauvais called the "Procession of the Assault", and married Jeanne to her chosen lover Colin Pilon, loading them with favours.[2] As of 1907, there was still an annual religious procession on 27 June through the streets of Beauvais to commemorate Jeanne's deed. [3]
And the only oeuvre existing about her , I think ...