Privacy, Death, Shame, Punishment

[Juan1234]

Forgive me if I’m retreading old ground here, but my mind is constantly searching for the essence of what makes female crucifixion so powerfully erotic. Here are some things I’ve thought of lately, for your enjoyment, and for discussion.

First, death seems to me a very private thing. Correct me if I’m applying my own feelings too broadly, but it seems we instinctively seek privacy at our time of death. We want to be surrounded by a few loved ones - God forbid we should die alone! But we don’t want to share our time of death with strangers, and certainly not the public. So even if we are dying comfortably in bed, we don’t want to do it in a stadium with thousands of eyes on us. How much worse to hang on a cross! As a person fights an extremely personal battle with death, even if fully clothed and not labeled as a criminal, it seems that the constant interaction and interruption of an audience would be... annoying at the very best, and probably at least a severe invasion of privacy, if not downright humiliating. Does anyone agree or disagree? (I’ll write about a couple more factors below.)

 

[Barbaria1]

I’ve said this before, but I will repeat it here. My fascination with crucifixion generally does not extend to the dying part. It’s everything that leads up to that point that I find erotically stimulating. The dying itself tends to be anticlimactic for me.

So, there is the dread of dying, and the discomforts, humiliations and sufferings of being publicly executed on the cross, but I tend to think little about who will witness my final moment or what they might think about it. That’s me.

 

[Juan1234]

Nudity is almost too obvious to point out, but I’ll just discuss it briefly. This may generate some discussion, because I know there’s a lot out there about how we SHOULD feel about our bodies, etc. But I still believe that most people would not choose to be naked in public with everyone’s around them fully clothed. Most people feel uncomfortable with that, right? Even if it were their own choice? Ok - what if it WEREN’T their choice? Somebody forced them to take their clothes off against their will. THAT’S uncomfortable for anybody, even if the whole world pities you for it.

In a related way, we obviously don’t want other people to think of us as a bad person. We could argue that when hanging on a cross, this is the least of our worries, but it seems to me (at least in my fantasies) that this psychological side of things could be a significant part of the punishment. That’s essentially what the pillory was all about, right? Of course pillory wasn’t very comfortable either, but even if it had been designed for comfort, it would be humiliating to go stand out in public in a place designated for wrongdoers. Just being there, even if not restrained, even if fully clothed, would be humiliating.

Now tie the two together - the crucified were not only forced to be naked, but EVERYONE KNEW WHY. No one pitied them (or very few). They were labeled as a BAD PERSON. In public. By forced nudity.

 

[Juan1234]

I’ve said this before, but I will repeat it here. My fascination with crucifixion generally does not extend to the dying part. It’s everything that leads up to that point that I find erotically stimulating. The dying itself tends to be anticlimactic for me.

So, there is the dread of dying, and the discomforts, humiliations and sufferings of being publicly executed on the cross, but I tend to think little about who will witness my final moment or what they might think about it. That’s me.

Fair enough!

 

[windar]

But we don’t want to share our time of death with strangers, and certainly not the public.

There are people who wish to jump to their deaths from very public high places, which often have to erect barriers to prevent that. Not to mention Evel Knievel and his son and such like who, while they don't intend to die, recognize it as a distinct possibility and accept that it will be very public and endlessly replayed on-line (though Evel lived to die of diabetes and lung disease in private)

 

[Juan1234]

There are people who wish to jump to their deaths from very public high places, which often have to erect barriers to prevent that. Not to mention Evel Knievel and his son and such like who, while they don't intend to die, recognize it as a distinct possibility and accept that it will be very public and endlessly replayed on-line (though Evel lived to die of diabetes and lung disease in private)

True - I’m thinking more of a slow struggle with death. Who wants spectators for THAT?

 

[Barbaria1]

There are people who wish to jump to their deaths from very public high places, which often have to erect barriers to prevent that. Not to mention Evel Knievel and his son and such like who, while they don't intend to die, recognize it as a distinct possibility and accept that it will be very public and endlessly replayed on-line (though Evel lived to die of diabetes and lung disease in private)

Some people are show-offs

 

[Juan1234]

Some people are show-offs

SERIOUSLY!? Like who??

 

[Loxuru]

Forgive me if I’m retreading old ground here, but my mind is constantly searching for the essence of what makes female crucifixion so powerfully erotic. Here are some things I’ve thought of lately, for your enjoyment, and for discussion.

First, death seems to me a very private thing. Correct me if I’m applying my own feelings too broadly, but it seems we instinctively seek privacy at our time of death. We want to be surrounded by a few loved ones - God forbid we should die alone! But we don’t want to share our time of death with strangers, and certainly not the public. So even if we are dying comfortably in bed, we don’t want to do it in a stadium with thousands of eyes on us. How much worse to hang on a cross! As a person fights an extremely personal battle with death, even if fully clothed and not labeled as a criminal, it seems that the constant interaction and interruption of an audience would be... annoying at the very best, and probably at least a severe invasion of privacy, if not downright humiliating. Does anyone agree or disagree? (I’ll write about a couple more factors below.)

Somehow, you put things as if these fantasy is about a death wish. Yet, it is something related to erotism, of which procreation, i.e. life, is the very basic driving force.
Secondly,, this fantasy plays in our mind, in private. The most we do, is writing them down, mostly in private, or at best to post them before a restricted audience with the same interests. The 'crowd' of strangers is also a creation of our mind.
If it has to do with death, then it is, to my opinion, at best erotisation of death, and so averting the darkness of it. I do not think anyone about to die will be occupied with such fantasies. They are basically about life.

(just some thoughts)

 

[malins]

My fascination with crucifixion generally does not extend to the dying part.

as if these fantasy is about a death wish

I'll have to agree with that ... it may seem illogical (but then what about such a fantasy is logical?) but for me the fascination of the fantasy, like Barb says, isn't with death at all. I'm also not really attracted by execution scenarios, or strictly judicial punishment etc. ... it's something else.

That doesn't mean the 'death factor' aka thanatos plays no role at all.

Psychologizing this will always be somewhat artificial, to a good part a fetish like this is ... it ain't why , it just is.

But some ideas... these may apply very differently to each person but just some ideas.

Perhaps it's more related to the idea of giving oneself up completely,

'do with me whatever you will'

up to & including death.

No limits.

That doesn't mean you're actually seeking death as the desired result ...
(maybe he can think of something else)
(but anything goes)

... rather it's the act of completely letting go and putting your fate in others' hands

we obviously don’t want other people to think of us as a bad person

Yes we don't want other people to think of us as bad persons normally,
... and will fight to defend our reputation. Viciously.

But ...

... sometimes we will think of ourselves as bad persons perhaps.

That may be for any number of reasons
... feelings of guilt, self-doubt, deep regrets & self-diagnosed but uncorrected failures, unprocessed conflict, depressive states, trauma, abuse.

So ...

what if ...?

What if it is all just a pretense and artifice and we feel inside that we're going through life every day ... just always pretending to be functioning, maybe succeeding at that pretense so damn well that we actually feel guilty about it, but inside it feels bad?

What if we are basically impostors, traitors.

What if ... while not wanting to be thought of as bad persons ... we thought that possible of ourselves?

And what if that was discovered, revealed, and punished.

For all to see, sort of like being crucified naked.

Maybe that's then not a contradictory but a therapeutic fantasy.

most people would not choose to be naked in public with everyone’s around them fully clothed. Most people feel uncomfortable with that, right? Even if it were their own choice? Ok - what if it WEREN’T their choice? Somebody forced them to take their clothes off against their will. THAT’S uncomfortable for anybody,

Art museums are full of old paintings with almost or completely nude female figures, but when it's not Eve most of them are tied up ...

... because the fact of being forced kept them morally pure

... Andromeda never got 'slut-shamed' for being chained nude against the rock.
(But she still knew she was damn sexy)

 

[Loxuru]

What if ... while not wanting to be thought of as bad persons ... we thought that possible of ourselves?

And what if that was discovered, revealed, and punished.

For all to see, sort of like being crucified naked.

Or, the reverse scenario : the fantasy thrill of being or behaving badly.

Afterwards 'compensated' by punishment (also a fantasy thrill)!

 

[woodflesh]

True - I’m thinking more of a slow struggle with death. Who wants spectators for THAT?

I would like lot's of spectators watching me struggling naked, this would be awesome if I could die like that, writhing and moaning, I would show them a great performance, perhaps crying and shreeking.

 

[woodflesh]

I would like lot's of spectators watching me struggling naked, this would be awesome if I could die like that, writhing and moaning, I would show them a great performance, perhaps crying blue murder,

 

[woodflesh]

I would like lot's of spectators watching me struggling naked, this would be awesome if I could die like that, writhing and moaning, I would show them a great performance, perhaps crying blue murder.

 

[fallenmystic]

I'm not much into crucification fantasies personally - I know, what an odd thing to say on CF - but to me, the appeal of most of my D/s fantasies comes from the aspect of degradation, and I think the idea of being executed while being naked in such a setting has a clear connection to that aspect.

For one to suffer a degradation, there must exist a 'higher grade' than one's current situation. And the distance between one's previous status and the current one better be extreme, if we want it to have its maximal psychological impact on us.

The 'grade' in this context doesn't have to be limited to mean the danger or pain that one is subjected to in one's current situation. Rather, it can also mean the whole collection of the notions that define what is considered desirable, respectful, or modest in society. A good citizen is expected to abide the laws. And a respectful woman always keeps her modesty in her attire, and people are not supposed to randomly grab her on the streets and do lewd things with her, and so on.

Being sentenced to suffer a naked torment on in public enhances that contrasts between a modest and respectful woman and a totally degraded criminal. Her most private body parts can be lewdly displayed in public because she was now degraded to the lowest form of existence which admits no notion of decency or modesty.

She no longer has the dignity or right to protect her from being lewdly jeered or grabbed on the streets because now her 'grade' has fallen well below that of unruly low lives in society. And the loss of her 'grade' in this context expose everything she valued of herself vulnerable for everyone to violate - her social class, reputation, rights as a citizen, modesty as a respectful woman, dignity as a human being, and even her life.

So, to me, most attraction of such fantasy scenarios comes from the distance between the victim's former 'grade' and that of her current one, in other words, her extreme degradation of being fallen from a modest law-abiding woman to a naked she-animal whom society sees as a parasite. At least for me, if a scenario involving execution by such cruel method as crucifixion could have any erotic, D/s appeals, it's mainly because of the realization that now the victim is considered a vermin to exterminate by the consensus of the society than of actual physical pain involved in the extermination process.

On a side note, I wonder why such extreme misogynistic aspects of some of the more fundamentalistic Islamic society aren't as often used as background settings for such stories as the Roman ones. When an Arab or Islamic society is used as such a setting in D/s fantasies, it's more often than not used to contrast the innocence of a civilized white girl against more 'barbaric' and probably more sensual and 'less civilized' non-white people, which may or may not be due to the author's own personal prejudices.

But if my interpretation of the aesthetics of such fantasy scenarios mainly coming from the contrast between the victim's changed states or 'grades' was correct, I believe such strict social codes of conduct enforced on women in those extreme religious nations could serve as a perfect fantasy background for such stories. If a girl is supposed to cover her whole body with clothes and avoid gazes from men to be considered respectful and modest, what sort of degradation she must feel when she's condemned to be stark naked and displayed in public? And if a girl believes her virginity is a value that she must protect with her life, what more degradation can you imagine than having her stripped and sexually abused by random men who regard her to be worthless to have as their lawful bride?

It doesn't have to be strictly based on real world religious beliefs or countries, but any fictional society where women are taught to follow such strict code of conduct would serve just as well, if how and why she is convinced herself that was the correct way of behaviours expected of her, as a decent modest girl could be described in a convincingly enough manner.

Personally, I would very much love to read such stories someday on CF.

 

[old slave]

On a side note, I wonder why such extreme misogynistic aspects of some of the more fundamentalistic Islamic society aren't as often used as background settings

Personally, I would very much love to read such stories someday on CF.

Try
Desert Sands

by @Barbaria1

 

[DjEtla]

Forgive me if I’m retreading old ground here, but my mind is constantly searching for the essence of what makes female crucifixion so powerfully erotic. Here are some things I’ve thought of lately, for your enjoyment, and for discussion.

First, death seems to me a very private thing. Correct me if I’m applying my own feelings too broadly, but it seems we instinctively seek privacy at our time of death. We want to be surrounded by a few loved ones - God forbid we should die alone! But we don’t want to share our time of death with strangers, and certainly not the public. So even if we are dying comfortably in bed, we don’t want to do it in a stadium with thousands of eyes on us. How much worse to hang on a cross! As a person fights an extremely personal battle with death, even if fully clothed and not labeled as a criminal, it seems that the constant interaction and interruption of an audience would be... annoying at the very best, and probably at least a severe invasion of privacy, if not downright humiliating. Does anyone agree or disagree? (I’ll write about a couple more factors below.)

It's an interesting topic. I guess my feelings are similar to others here. Death and horrible pain are not turn-ons.

But (for reasons I don't understand) feelings of horrible dread can be a turn on. And there can't really be feelings of horrible dread unless the main character knows for certain that the degradation, pain and death are coming -- so that's a required part of the story even if that's not the part of the story that's enjoyable to think about.

Some of the stories that come to my mind are about someone who's informed that they going to be crucified (and that it'll happen naked, with a public audience to watch the whole process from start to finish). Getting that kind of sentence must be a really horrible feeling. It must be even worse if it happens in a culture where crucifixion is somewhat common and unremarkable -- the main character knows that the audience won't be too shocked or feel too much empathy, since this sort of thing happens all the time. It would also be a lot worse if a loved one got the same sentence.

 

[Barbaria1]

Try
Desert Sands

by @Barbaria1

Thanks, OS, for recalling that story. I had forgotten it. I think I have written too many stories.

 

[twonines]

Thanks, OS, for recalling that story. I had forgotten it. I think I have written too many stories.

Even though you are a bit tetchy today,we can never have too many of you stories.

 

[fallenmystic]

Try
Desert Sands

by @Barbaria1

Thanks for the recommendation! But I'm afraid the story is close to a modern version of such 'Arab raiders' or 'Ottoman slavers' story than one that I described earlier, in this context. Of course, Barbaria's writing skill is perfect as always in that story and I'm sure she doesn't have any severe bias against Iraqi people. But thematically, it still relies on such 'a civilized white girl abused by less civilized (or at least less squirmish about abusing women) non-white men' scenario that I mentioned in my previous post as something we've done countless times (albeit with lesser quality mostly) before.

To qualify as the story that I was suggesting, it's much better if the roles can be reversed, so that the victim is from such culture, in which they enforce much stricter moral codes to women than they do in Americans or West European society.

For instance, the story could depict extreme fundamentalist religious society where a girl can never even dream of showing her bare face to other men who's not from her family. Or you can make it so that girls recieve such education that they take it as a grave sin just to imagine being aroused sexually by any other methods than a lawful bonding with her husband.

If such a girl can be somehow stripped naked and raped on the streets in front of a cheering audience and other respectable women, who still adhere to such moral codes, then that can consist the kind of degradation that I tried to explain in my previous post.

On a side note, I think it could probably be because it's rather difficult for authors who live in a Westernized society to get in the shoes of a victim with such a mindset. And as I wrote, such a 'civilized white girls abused by less civilized non-whites' trope is so prevalent that we are all acustomed to it. So, combining them, I suppose we could understand why such a story as I described in my post seems to be so rare.