Loxuru
Graf von Kreuzigung
Von Braun's finest hour was of course the summer of 1969. Then, he was acclaimed as the man who had made it all possible.
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Science Fiction, Fantasy & Human (& other) Beings in Peril
- Thread starter Silent_Water
- Start date
Von Braun's finest hour was of course the summer of 1969. Then, he was acclaimed as the man who had made it all possible.
In 1965 American satirist Tom Lehrer was unsympathetic to both Von Braun and the space program, which was the reverse of what felt both then and now.
But the song is pretty funny anyway.
In 1965 American satirist Tom Lehrer was unsympathetic to both Von Braun and the space program, which was the reverse of what felt both then and now.
But the song is pretty funny anyway.
A classic Tom Lehrer that I remember my dad playing and chuckling over!
Silent_Water
Tribune
By the way, Wernher von Braun knew that song of Tom Lehrer and said he found it funny - or pretended to have found it funny! (?)
I would really have liked to talk to such intelligent men as Wernher von Braun about their way of thinking. He seemed always to be able to go without any emotions over unpleasant event as if they did not have happened or did not really touch him. There is a story about a rocket explosion which killed two of his friends and he did not show any emotion except "Something like this happens sometimes ..."
On the other hand, his German co-workers, family and friends said, they really saw him crying tears for the first time in their life on the whole day when Kennedy was assassinated and all who knew him were surprised about that.
Something in the behaviour of such persons like Wernher von Braun is and will always be inexplicable for me.
I think there will always be times in which human beings think it is better not to see things which they do not want to see and they can really make themselves believe later they have never seen it although they certainly did.
The French documentary film maker Claude Lanzmann made this famous documentary "Shoah" in 1985 and he said later, even he was surprised how the subconsciousness of human beings can work in order to forget things you want to forget. He had the example of an old Polish train conductor who was driving trains also for the Germans during WW II. He could talk with him about everything but this Polish man obviously really always forgot during the conversation certain Polish names of certain places like "Oświęcim" (= "Auschwitz"). Something in his mind simply did not want to remember what he had seen or experienced and he was someone who did not do this by intention.
Now imagine what you may be able to forget if you really want to forget it with all your might.
There is a book by Lew Kopelew, a former Russian friend of the German Nobel prize winner Heinrich Böll. In this book "To be Preserved Forever", he used a Russian formular-expression in Russian documents about German war crimes as a title for his book about the Russian war crimes he himself was witness of when he was an active combattant in WW II. This book is really hard to read because he describes without sparing himself how you can commit war crimes by seeing only the war crimes of others but not them of yourself and your own troops who will then later say, this did never happen. And he said in his book that the most cowardly soldiers will later tell the greatest hero stories about their own role in their war.
en.wikipedia.org
If you ever want to have a sad and depressive look at mankind as a whole but also a look to this very honorable and very honest Russian writer Lew Kopelew, you must read this book one day.
I would really have liked to talk to such intelligent men as Wernher von Braun about their way of thinking. He seemed always to be able to go without any emotions over unpleasant event as if they did not have happened or did not really touch him. There is a story about a rocket explosion which killed two of his friends and he did not show any emotion except "Something like this happens sometimes ..."
On the other hand, his German co-workers, family and friends said, they really saw him crying tears for the first time in their life on the whole day when Kennedy was assassinated and all who knew him were surprised about that.
Something in the behaviour of such persons like Wernher von Braun is and will always be inexplicable for me.
I think there will always be times in which human beings think it is better not to see things which they do not want to see and they can really make themselves believe later they have never seen it although they certainly did.
The French documentary film maker Claude Lanzmann made this famous documentary "Shoah" in 1985 and he said later, even he was surprised how the subconsciousness of human beings can work in order to forget things you want to forget. He had the example of an old Polish train conductor who was driving trains also for the Germans during WW II. He could talk with him about everything but this Polish man obviously really always forgot during the conversation certain Polish names of certain places like "Oświęcim" (= "Auschwitz"). Something in his mind simply did not want to remember what he had seen or experienced and he was someone who did not do this by intention.
Now imagine what you may be able to forget if you really want to forget it with all your might.
There is a book by Lew Kopelew, a former Russian friend of the German Nobel prize winner Heinrich Böll. In this book "To be Preserved Forever", he used a Russian formular-expression in Russian documents about German war crimes as a title for his book about the Russian war crimes he himself was witness of when he was an active combattant in WW II. This book is really hard to read because he describes without sparing himself how you can commit war crimes by seeing only the war crimes of others but not them of yourself and your own troops who will then later say, this did never happen. And he said in his book that the most cowardly soldiers will later tell the greatest hero stories about their own role in their war.
Lev Kopelev - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
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Gibbs505
SERVORUM DOMITOR
Or realized that taking on a writer and comic was a bad idea!
Silent_Water
Tribune
He would have realized that looong before because there were famous German comedians who made careful jokes about Hitler & HImmler and even they did not dare to touch them for their jokes although other "normal citizens" were executed who repeated such jokes in public.
Being a well-known "court-jester" might always have been dangerous but their celebrity also always helped to save their lives and a normal citizen never dared to criticize the king nor the court-jester ...
(By the way, there is a word in German which I simply cannot translate at the moment into English: "ein Normalsterblicher / Normalsterbliche", which means a person who is living and dying a completely normal life, not having the possibility or permission to do or say something unusual. This expression is mostly used in negative combinations with outstanding or superior persons, such as "he is allowed to do that or to live that way but we "Normalsterbliche" cannot do that or we are not allowed to do that", similar to this "Roman" saying:
en.wikipedia.org
Is there a similar word (-combination) like "Normalsterblicher" in English?)
Being a well-known "court-jester" might always have been dangerous but their celebrity also always helped to save their lives and a normal citizen never dared to criticize the king nor the court-jester ...
(By the way, there is a word in German which I simply cannot translate at the moment into English: "ein Normalsterblicher / Normalsterbliche", which means a person who is living and dying a completely normal life, not having the possibility or permission to do or say something unusual. This expression is mostly used in negative combinations with outstanding or superior persons, such as "he is allowed to do that or to live that way but we "Normalsterbliche" cannot do that or we are not allowed to do that", similar to this "Roman" saying:
Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
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Is there a similar word (-combination) like "Normalsterblicher" in English?)Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi - Wikipedia
White House staffer?
Silent_Water
Tribune
Hm, I am afraid this is not exactly the word combination what I am searching for although it goes into the right direction.
By the way, I remembered at least one true German "court-jester", who made legendary and dangerous jokes throughout his whole life and all Germans of his lifetime said, that it is really a miracle how he survived the time of WW II:
en.wikipedia.org
Some of his rather dangerous jokes are in the German version here like the one about the "Hitler oak", which was a very fast growing plant. At first, it was so small that it reached only to his ankles, then to his knees "... and now, it reaches already my throat!":
de.wikipedia.org
He also had so strange and dangerous ideas which he found to be funny and all others "weary of life". In 1945, it happened to be that he was in "Braunau am Inn" in Austria where Hitler was born and there he came across the house of the Hitler-party remarking that they were just burning all their files and folders in the backyard. And Werner Finck really walked in, introduced himself as the German cabarettist Werner Finck and really asked them if he could still become the very last member of the Nazi-Party.
They looked at him in disbelief and one shouted: "Get out of here or we will kill you!"
He later said, he knew it was a totally crazy idea but he simply could not resist to this joke ...
By the way, I remembered at least one true German "court-jester", who made legendary and dangerous jokes throughout his whole life and all Germans of his lifetime said, that it is really a miracle how he survived the time of WW II:
Werner Finck - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Werner Finck – Wikipedia
de.wikipedia.org
They looked at him in disbelief and one shouted: "Get out of here or we will kill you!"
He later said, he knew it was a totally crazy idea but he simply could not resist to this joke ...
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Silent_Water
Tribune
Oh, I just remembered, I am here in "my" science fiction thread and I myself am always surprised what we Germans are sometimes capable of doing.
First example: A Star Wars version with the usual German translation like in the German cinemas but with Darth Vader, the Emperor and Yoda suddenly speaking "Kölsch", the dialect of Cologne. You probably will not be able to understand the great jokes ...
(e.g. the Emperor is old, senile, always tired and asks Vader when they will finally arrive at this so-called Death Star. Darth Vader looks at him and back at their way and answers after a long pause in "Kölsch": "You are walking on it for some time!")
... but you will probably understand why there is no German "Hero Saga" from Cologne since the Middle Ages. It is simply impossible for a German like me to imagine a military commander speaking "Kölsch".
And then, there was this impressive "home-made" Star Wars - Movie by really "fanatic" German Star Wars - Fans, after which even the German news "Tagesschau" was asking what they might have made for fantastic science fiction movies if they had had the budget of Disney:
A look behind the scenes when they made their movie:
First example: A Star Wars version with the usual German translation like in the German cinemas but with Darth Vader, the Emperor and Yoda suddenly speaking "Kölsch", the dialect of Cologne. You probably will not be able to understand the great jokes ...
(e.g. the Emperor is old, senile, always tired and asks Vader when they will finally arrive at this so-called Death Star. Darth Vader looks at him and back at their way and answers after a long pause in "Kölsch": "You are walking on it for some time!")
... but you will probably understand why there is no German "Hero Saga" from Cologne since the Middle Ages. It is simply impossible for a German like me to imagine a military commander speaking "Kölsch".
And then, there was this impressive "home-made" Star Wars - Movie by really "fanatic" German Star Wars - Fans, after which even the German news "Tagesschau" was asking what they might have made for fantastic science fiction movies if they had had the budget of Disney:
A look behind the scenes when they made their movie:
Loxuru
Graf von Kreuzigung
That would sound like : 'normalmortal', I suppose.
Silent_Water
Tribune
Yes, exactly, but how can one translate the meaning?
Silent_Water
Tribune
I am regularly looking at some statistics during the last weeks and I compare them. When I look at this, especially the blue marked numbers ...
... I get the feeling more and more, this was not a mistake of the people, it was a mistake of their governments, which underestimated the coronavirus and some Asian neighbours of China like South Korea or Taiwan did not - miraculously.
Especially Russia has now incredible high numbers of new confirmed infections - every day more than 10.000 ! And their hospitals have good doctors but their (laboratory) equipment is a desaster outside of the cities like Moscow or St. Petersburg. They are now really "overrun" by new patients. And Xyulo - wanted by criminal international court in The Hague, like the presidents of some other countries like Brazil etc. , thought for a long time, this will only hit China.
Probably, I am a really bad person because I just remembered a sad, cynical joke I heard first from Romania (but it could also have been invented in Russia) in the late 1980's during the times of dictator Nicolae Ceausescu:
An old man is coming every morning to a newspaper kiosk and asks the shopkeeper if he just may have a look at the headlines of the first pages of the newspapers. The shopkeeper says: "Why not?" and shows him the headlines. The old man says "Thank you!" and returns every morning from this day on. After a week, the shopkeeper says: "Maybe, I can help you so you don't have to come every morning. What are you looking for? I could search it for you!"
- "No, you cannot really help me! I am just looking for an obituary notice!"
- "But they are never on the first page!"
- "Believe me, this one I am looking for, will be there! And many persons like me will celebrate it!"
I still have a bottle of the best French Champagne in my cellar and I will open it when there is a vaccine against the coronavirus - but maybe - also earlier because it depends on some headlines ...
... I get the feeling more and more, this was not a mistake of the people, it was a mistake of their governments, which underestimated the coronavirus and some Asian neighbours of China like South Korea or Taiwan did not - miraculously.
Especially Russia has now incredible high numbers of new confirmed infections - every day more than 10.000 ! And their hospitals have good doctors but their (laboratory) equipment is a desaster outside of the cities like Moscow or St. Petersburg. They are now really "overrun" by new patients. And Xyulo - wanted by criminal international court in The Hague, like the presidents of some other countries like Brazil etc. , thought for a long time, this will only hit China.
Probably, I am a really bad person because I just remembered a sad, cynical joke I heard first from Romania (but it could also have been invented in Russia) in the late 1980's during the times of dictator Nicolae Ceausescu:
An old man is coming every morning to a newspaper kiosk and asks the shopkeeper if he just may have a look at the headlines of the first pages of the newspapers. The shopkeeper says: "Why not?" and shows him the headlines. The old man says "Thank you!" and returns every morning from this day on. After a week, the shopkeeper says: "Maybe, I can help you so you don't have to come every morning. What are you looking for? I could search it for you!"
- "No, you cannot really help me! I am just looking for an obituary notice!"
- "But they are never on the first page!"
- "Believe me, this one I am looking for, will be there! And many persons like me will celebrate it!"
I still have a bottle of the best French Champagne in my cellar and I will open it when there is a vaccine against the coronavirus - but maybe - also earlier because it depends on some headlines ...
Hm, I am afraid this is not exactly the word combination what I am searching for although it goes into the right direction.
By the way, I remembered at least one true German "court-jester", who made legendary and dangerous jokes throughout his whole life and all Germans of his lifetime said, that it is really a miracle how he survived the time of WW II:
Some of his rather dangerous jokes are in the German version here like the one about the "Hitler oak", which was a very fast growing plant. At first, it was so small that it reached only to his ankles, then to his knees "... and now, it reaches already my throat!":Werner Finck - Wikipedia
He also had so strange and dangerous ideas which he found to be funny and all others "weary of life". In 1945, it happened to be that he was in "Braunau am Inn" in Austria where Hitler was born and there he came across the house of the Hitler-party remarking that they were just burning all their files and folders in the backyard. And Werner Finck really walked in, introduced himself as the German cabarettist Werner Finck and really asked them if he could still become the very last member of the Nazi-Party.Werner Finck – Wikipedia
They looked at him in disbelief and one shouted: "Get out of here or we will kill you!"
He later said, he knew it was a totally crazy idea but he simply could not resist to this joke ...
SW, I’d never heard of this guy. My half-learned German failed me so I looked up some English language sources, this one
https://www.gdw-berlin.de/en/recess.../biographie/view-bio/werner-finck/?no_cache=1
and a "page issues" Wikipedia article.
Werner Finck - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
They really should make a movie about him.
Silent_Water
Tribune
I am afraid, the younger generations of today would not really understand the reasons any more why such men like Werner Finck were so famous in their times. During the last 50 years, there was an accelaration in the perception of human beings, which you can for example remark, when you compare movies from the 1950's with movies of today.
Often the young audience of today says, there is "nothing happening" during the first 10 - 15 minutes in movies like "Psycho" or "To Catch a Thief" and they find even these masterpieces "boring", because today there must be action right at the beginning of a movie to "chain" the audience to their seats.
The masterpieces of Werner Finck were games with the German language and his incomplete sentences, which were so slow spoken by intention that the audience finished these sentences so that he could say to his political enemies in Nazi-Germany with a mix of a sad and a cunning smile: "I did not say this. The audience - the German people - said this!"
This would not work today and maybe this is only possible to be done by a genius in his language in a dictatorship.
He had the luck to meet during his time at the German "Wehrmacht" officers who did not really always like him but who understood how intelligent and brave a man like him must be in his soul to always play a "silly fool" but who is able to make others say the truth by not finishing the sentences. One German military officer once told him that he does not agree with him at all but he respects him very much because he is probably one of the bravest man he had ever met.
Some jokes by Werner Finck are so out of date today that even I must hear them twice - and use a history book - to understand them, but there are still some good examples of his texts on YouTube and one very intellectual interview which shows what a friendly and extremely intelligent master of the German language he was:
The first two videos can not be linked directly:
---https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xElYtauLkT4---
---https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=248oBpR7Ie0---
The interview, which shows on which high level Werner Finck was normally speaking German:
Bertolt Brecht even wrote a poem about Werner Finck after he had seen him in 1947 in Switzerland in a Cabaret there, probably the only poem a writer and poet has ever written about a political satirist:
From "Eulenspiegel überlebt den Krieg" ("Eulenspiegel survives the War"):
Und als der große/ Gütevolle, würdelose/ Späßevogel diese knappe/ Zeit beschrieb, da war's, als klappe/ geisterhaft ihm manche tote/ Hand noch Beifall.[...]
Und es war, als wüchsen Flügel/ Diesem ungelenken Gaste/ der in großer Zeit nicht paßte/ und indem er witzig war und bebte/ wie das niedre Volk sie überlebte"
There were two masters in games with the German language who were simply unique in those times and I am afraid, no one will ever have again their class and abilities:
politically: Werner Finck and Heinz Ehrhardt as intelligent entertainer just by using language as a game like no German ever before or after:
... and when you understand all of these examples and why the audience is laughing, you are really very, very good in German.
Often the young audience of today says, there is "nothing happening" during the first 10 - 15 minutes in movies like "Psycho" or "To Catch a Thief" and they find even these masterpieces "boring", because today there must be action right at the beginning of a movie to "chain" the audience to their seats.
The masterpieces of Werner Finck were games with the German language and his incomplete sentences, which were so slow spoken by intention that the audience finished these sentences so that he could say to his political enemies in Nazi-Germany with a mix of a sad and a cunning smile: "I did not say this. The audience - the German people - said this!"
This would not work today and maybe this is only possible to be done by a genius in his language in a dictatorship.
He had the luck to meet during his time at the German "Wehrmacht" officers who did not really always like him but who understood how intelligent and brave a man like him must be in his soul to always play a "silly fool" but who is able to make others say the truth by not finishing the sentences. One German military officer once told him that he does not agree with him at all but he respects him very much because he is probably one of the bravest man he had ever met.
Some jokes by Werner Finck are so out of date today that even I must hear them twice - and use a history book - to understand them, but there are still some good examples of his texts on YouTube and one very intellectual interview which shows what a friendly and extremely intelligent master of the German language he was:
The first two videos can not be linked directly:
---https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xElYtauLkT4---
---https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=248oBpR7Ie0---
The interview, which shows on which high level Werner Finck was normally speaking German:
Bertolt Brecht even wrote a poem about Werner Finck after he had seen him in 1947 in Switzerland in a Cabaret there, probably the only poem a writer and poet has ever written about a political satirist:
From "Eulenspiegel überlebt den Krieg" ("Eulenspiegel survives the War"):
Und als der große/ Gütevolle, würdelose/ Späßevogel diese knappe/ Zeit beschrieb, da war's, als klappe/ geisterhaft ihm manche tote/ Hand noch Beifall.[...]
Und es war, als wüchsen Flügel/ Diesem ungelenken Gaste/ der in großer Zeit nicht paßte/ und indem er witzig war und bebte/ wie das niedre Volk sie überlebte"
There were two masters in games with the German language who were simply unique in those times and I am afraid, no one will ever have again their class and abilities:
politically: Werner Finck and Heinz Ehrhardt as intelligent entertainer just by using language as a game like no German ever before or after:
... and when you understand all of these examples and why the audience is laughing, you are really very, very good in German.
I am afraid, the younger generations of today would not really understand the reasons any more why such men like Werner Finck were so famous in their times. During the last 50 years, there was an accelaration in the perception of human beings, which you can for example remark, when you compare movies from the 1950's with movies of today.
Often the young audience of today says, there is "nothing happening" during the first 10 - 15 minutes in movies like "Psycho" or "To Catch a Thief" and they find even these masterpieces "boring", because today there must be action right at the beginning of a movie to "chain" the audience to their seats.
The masterpieces of Werner Finck were games with the German language and his incomplete sentences, which were so slow spoken by intention that the audience finished these sentences so that he could say to his political enemies in Nazi-Germany with a mix of a sad and a cunning smile: "I did not say this. The audience - the German people - said this!"
This would not work today and maybe this is only possible to be done by a genius in his language in a dictatorship.
He had the luck to meet during his time at the German "Wehrmacht" officers who did not really always like him but who understood how intelligent and brave a man like him must be in his soul to always play a "silly fool" but who is able to make others say the truth by not finishing the sentences. One German military officer once told him that he does not agree with him at all but he respects him very much because he is probably one of the bravest man he had ever met.
Some jokes by Werner Finck are so out of date today that even I must hear them twice - and use a history book - to understand them, but there are still some good examples of his texts on YouTube and one very intellectual interview which shows what a friendly and extremely intelligent master of the German language he was:
The first two videos can not be linked directly:
---https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xElYtauLkT4---
---https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=248oBpR7Ie0---
The interview, which shows on which high level Werner Finck was normally speaking German:
Bertolt Brecht even wrote a poem about Werner Finck after he had seen him in 1947 in Switzerland in a Cabaret there, probably the only poem a writer and poet has ever written about a political satirist:
From "Eulenspiegel überlebt den Krieg" ("Eulenspiegel survives the War"):
Und als der große/ Gütevolle, würdelose/ Späßevogel diese knappe/ Zeit beschrieb, da war's, als klappe/ geisterhaft ihm manche tote/ Hand noch Beifall.[...]
Und es war, als wüchsen Flügel/ Diesem ungelenken Gaste/ der in großer Zeit nicht paßte/ und indem er witzig war und bebte/ wie das niedre Volk sie überlebte"
There were two masters in games with the German language who were simply unique in those times and I am afraid, no one will ever have again their class and abilities:
politically: Werner Finck and Heinz Ehrhardt as intelligent entertainer just by using language as a game like no German ever before or after:
... and when you understand all of these examples and why the audience is laughing, you are really very, very good in German.
I couldn’t keep up, but the fellow’s face was a joy to watch.
Attachments
Silent_Water
Tribune
Yeah, he was really great!
But we now have reached the intellectual level where we can make evil jokes about other German-speaking nations like Switzerland and there is probably now the most "evil young woman" from Switzerland more often guest in Germany, a daughter of a Swiss surgeon in the USA (no joke!), specialized in brain surgery and she says, because of her dad's work, something must have also gone wrong with her, "Hazel Brugger" ("my dad had a sadistic feeling when giving names to his children"), who seems to have during the last 4 years a very cruel humour, affected by Swiss hypothermia, so she laughs not really often.
Her most famous sentences from her performances in Germany:
1. "When Germans ask the Swiss how could they stay neutral in WW II although being surrounded by German and Italian fascists, the Swiss can simply answer: 'First, which war? Oh, now we remember: that one! Thank you for your many gold ingots!' ... and second: "We are very national-conservative ourselves, so we don't need any right-wing-populists or silly fascists who are just in fashion in other countries! Moreover, there is no right-wing-politician in Switzerland intelligent enough to speak all our four state languages fluently and well enough to convince all Swiss about his political goals!"
2. "We Swiss do not have and do not need any emotions because we are having money!"
But we now have reached the intellectual level where we can make evil jokes about other German-speaking nations like Switzerland and there is probably now the most "evil young woman" from Switzerland more often guest in Germany, a daughter of a Swiss surgeon in the USA (no joke!), specialized in brain surgery and she says, because of her dad's work, something must have also gone wrong with her, "Hazel Brugger" ("my dad had a sadistic feeling when giving names to his children"), who seems to have during the last 4 years a very cruel humour, affected by Swiss hypothermia, so she laughs not really often.
Her most famous sentences from her performances in Germany:
1. "When Germans ask the Swiss how could they stay neutral in WW II although being surrounded by German and Italian fascists, the Swiss can simply answer: 'First, which war? Oh, now we remember: that one! Thank you for your many gold ingots!' ... and second: "We are very national-conservative ourselves, so we don't need any right-wing-populists or silly fascists who are just in fashion in other countries! Moreover, there is no right-wing-politician in Switzerland intelligent enough to speak all our four state languages fluently and well enough to convince all Swiss about his political goals!"
2. "We Swiss do not have and do not need any emotions because we are having money!"
Okay, let’s see. I know about German, Italian and French, but what other language?
Silent_Water
Tribune
"Rätoromanisch" (=> "Rhaeto-Romanic" [?] ) is the officially recognized fourth national language in Switzerland:
en.wikipedia.org
Rhaeto-Romance languages - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
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"Rätoromanisch" (=> "Rhaeto-Romanic" [?] ) is the officially recognized fourth national language in Switzerland:
Rhaeto-Romance languages - Wikipedia
I am enlightened. Thanks.