Proposal: Area For Languages Other Than English

[Abendlaender]

I would like to make the proposal to set up an area reserved for other languages. In order that users can write in every language they like, the rule could apply that users state in the title which language they write in.

With regards

 

[Fantasmo]

My 2c

I would like to make the proposal to set up an area reserved for other languages. In order that users can write in every language they like, the rule could apply that users state in the title which language they write in.

What would the point be?
This is causing a segmentation that is weakening and not strengthening the community! Basically no difference (even worse than) to setting up a new forum for each language!
I for one don't want to limit my responses to a small group by participating in a German discussion and cutting my English speaking friends form the discussion, even if my mother tongue is German.

In times of online translators the "excuse" of "not everybody speaking English" is a bit questionable as well, imho.
One can read this forum through those tools and pretty much understand what is written.

It's in the nature of the cause that electronic translation works best "from/to English", so also from this aspect it makes sense to write English here.

I'd make an alternate proposal:
Reading is no problem, one could publish a "how to" on using online translators for those who don't know these tools and/or to show how translations can be made readable!

Writing is more of a challenge. I think it would be in line with the Forum policy to post a "machine translation" followed by the original text.

I am making an example using Google translator.
----

The condemned was whipped and then executed on the cross!
(Original in German:
Die Verurteilte wurde ausgepeitscht und anschliessend am Kreuz hingerichtet!)
---
I did write the German text into Google, tweaked the translation a bit by selecting the best translations from the pulldown list that Google is offering, that's it!

Preserving the original texts is valuable because humans in here, who understand both languages, can then help clarifying where the machine returned a strange text.
And as a side node: Is there a more entertaining way to learn English than translating kinky texts?

 

[Abendlaender]

The point is that I like to sometimes discuss in my own language as do some others. If English-only speakers want to read posts in the other languages area, they could as well use the google translator.

In other communities, this works well to have a kind of small sub-communities.

With regards,

Alexander Dietz

 

[Fantasmo]

In other communities, this works well to have a kind of small sub-communities.

With the difference being, I bet, the number of participants in those communities.
Scaling down doesn't work in every case.

 

[Eulalia]

Another consideration is that moderators, administrators and site owners need to know what's going on.
That's to protect the site from getting shut down, or getting unwelcome attention from the 'authorities'.

I sympathise with your point, Abendlaender, you probably could have more 'in-depth' discussion with other German speakers, and it must be a bit galling that we English speakers seem to expect everyone to speak English and don't (on the whole) make much effort to learn or use other languages.

But the great thing about CruxForums is that we do have people from so many different language communities sharing our 'kink', it works well, we have occasional misunderstandings but we learn to make allowances for each other. I don't think there are many languages other than English that have more than a handful of speakers among the regular, active contributors. Having 'reserves' for them would create a collection of small cliques semi-detached from the life of the Forums, making it less enjoyable for all of us.

You can, of course, conduct private conversations in any language, and invite as many to take part as you want.

 

[messaline]

Eulalia and Fantamo, you're right...It's a bit difficult for me to explain my ideas
in English (I'm French), but ,in coming on this site, I've make an effort to understand the others and to try speaking with them and to write some stories
or poems : believe me, Abendlaender, it's perhaps difficult, but it's also a sort of respect towards this community which welcomes you (and me, and others...)!
When you enter in a community, I think that you've to respect it rules, and , in return, it accepts you as a member....
Thanks to read me...Messaline

 

[Bagoas]

As a Dutch native, I have much sympathy for the 'languages other than English' option. Some 10 years ago (or was it more?) I took up creative writing in English on a forum/role play game. It was quite an exercise, but I had great support from a forum member, a native (who happened to have a university degree in English, butthat was no means necessary) was kind enough to preview my works and comment/suggest on language issues. So, that woudl be my suggestion: if native speakers who feel equipped to do so would stand up and offer help, that would maybe persuade members with a different background to participate.
My advice to those speaking a different language at home is: Forget translation! Try to 'saturate' your mind with english before you write by reading stories (crux or other) to burn the pattern in your mind.
Second advice: The English and Americans are two people divided by a common language. Choose one and try to focus on it.'Do you have a rubber?' is a question that can be understood very differently on opposite sides of the Atlantic. ;-)
Third advice (to EU continentals in particular): Keep in mind the cultural differences. This forum strikes as fairly open, but for example especially people in the US sometimes seem to have an open nerve (from my european perspective at least) on racial issues. In creative writing one tensds (well at least I did) to seek the boundaries. What is still well within in your culture, may be well beyond the acceptable limits for the other folk. Trough movies and television we are well exposed to US culture, but the other way round things may be different.
In the end the aim of writing in fora like this one is to 'connect to' the readers, and when writing one should try to achieve that goal.

 

[Fantasmo]

To start with: Very well writing that I largely do agree with.

if native speakers who feel equipped to do so would stand up and offer help, that would maybe persuade members with a different background to participate.

Somewhat in line with one statement I made, proposing to post both the "english translation by machine" as well as the original language post.
Peoplewith good language skills then can help clarify if needed.
and I am sure they will be glad to.

My advice to those speaking a different language at home is: Forget translation! Try to 'saturate' your mind with english before you write by reading stories (crux or other) to burn the pattern in your mind.

I disagree here.
Translating (by looking for words in dict.cc and wicktionary.org) is also a way to learn. I am currently using 3 foreign languages in the Crux context, all 3 do benefit from that.
Sure, reading a lot generates a feeling for the language and starting to translate without understanding a bit is difficult because you have to rely on the machine translations, that sometimes are weird.

Second advice: The English and Americans are two people divided by a common language. Choose one and try to focus on it.'Do you have a rubber?' is a question that can be understood very differently on opposite sides of the Atlantic. ;-)

The inevitable misunderstandings...
Yes, it does help to be aware of the huge cultural differences both for writers and readers!

Third advice (to EU continentals in particular): Keep in mind the cultural differences. This forum strikes as fairly open, but for example especially people in the US sometimes seem to have an open nerve (from my european perspective at least) on racial issues. In creative writing one tends (well at least I did) to seek the boundaries. What is still well within in your culture, may be well beyond the acceptable limits for the other folk.

I disagree here: When you visit a place, you have to accept the local rules. This forum is "global/western culture", so "local sensitivities that are exceeding that" must not be applied. Tolerance is a key word. A second one is "depart from the best of all interpretations until you are proven wrong".
It's also a form of racism to deny a black girl the same right to be a slave or crucified like white girls have it...

Trough movies and television we are well exposed to US culture, but the other way round things may be different.

What "isn't our problem", right?
It's good to be aware of, but it's the Americans who need to realize that the US are not the navel of the world and that the US are only a small part of the world.

 

[Bagoas]

I think we are not too far apart, really, Herr Nachbar!
Regarding the translations: My experience with that is, that if the end product is a piece written in English, then if I write it in Dutch first and then translate, I have three problems: Finding a correct formulation in Dutch, then to get the Dutch specific twists out of it and then finding a correct wording in English. So: if I do it in English directly, it saves me a lot of work.
Regarding the cultural differences: My intention was to tell that in some american fora what i wanted to say was completely overshadowed by a response to what appeare to be taken as a racial issue. Yes: 'assume the best of all interpretations until you are proved wrong' : I completely agree.
Again, respect is the key to everything.

 

[Fantasmo]

Regarding the translations: My experience with that is, that if the end product is a piece written in English, then if I write it in Dutch first and then translate, I have three problems: Finding a correct formulation in Dutch, then to get the Dutch specific twists out of it and then finding a correct wording in English. So: if I do it in English directly, it saves me a lot of work.

Very true, but it will take long to get there. For somebody who doesn't have any English skills, the initial "hurdle" is discouragingly high if people need to evolve their language skills to that point prior to posting.
Translators will help bridge that period.
Second thing: I am doing translations for a non-englih-speaking artist.
Initially he provided his (limited English) texts, asking me to straighten it out.
I persuaded him to provide the texts in his own ( = unlimited) language, because too much got lost by lack of vocabulary.
It's taking a long time until one is capable to express him self without much limits ... any you still run into language trouble, see my footer!

Regarding the cultural differences: My intention was to tell that in some american fora what i wanted to say was completely overshadowed by a response to what appeare to be taken as a racial issue.

Yes, but again this was less due to you saying something wrong than to a "limited view" of others, isn't it?!
You know, at a certain point concessions are reaching a limit.
It's not always up to the smarter to give way, sometimes the uneducated nead to learn a lesson (or at least shut up) as well.

 

[messaline]

Somewhat in line with one statement I made, proposing to post both the "english translation by machine" as well as the original language post.
Peoplewith good language skills then can help clarify if needed.
and I am sure they will be glad to.

It's exactly that I do and, honestly, I'm very happy of this cooperation...

Yes, it does help to be aware of the huge cultural differences both for writers and readers!

But, in the same time, we can learn each others, and it's enriching !

When you visit a place, you have to accept the local rules

Tolerance is a key word

Respect and Tolerance must to be the only rule....!

 

[ImageMaker]

English is understood by most people.
Imagine what this forum was in Russian (my native language) or in Ukrainian (the language of my father)?
Therefore, our rules state - the language of forum only English.

 

[thehangingtree]

"especially people in the US sometimes seem to have an open nerve (from my european perspective at least) on racial issues" bagois

While ImageMaker, who makes this site possible, has spoken, the 'open nerve' you address is real. As only the second generation of native born Americans (all grandparents immigrated from Italy) it's amazing when you disagree with a black person, such as our president, it can only be because you are racist, not that you just disagree.

I rarely include a person of color in my stories for that reason.

that's all,

Tree

 

[messaline]

Yes Tree, you're right, but in France, perhaps due to our integrationist system , I think it's altering ; for example, in University, we meet people coming from all countries, Asian people, African people, American people, etc...., and we can clearly discuss without to be showed as racist if we disagree...
OK, it's a privileged ambience, but it's here that are shaped the futures managers
of our nation and, later, they will boost their ideas among the population, I hope
at least...

 

[Eulalia]

I'm often uneasy about the stereotypic portrayal of the Islamic, especially Arab, world, in some of our content,​

but whatever our race, creed or colour, we all have to be willing to be 'naked and exposed' on this site,​

with skins (of whatever colour) thick enough to put up with a bit of pain!​

​

Of course any content that's defamatory, hateful, abusive or threatening is unacceptable,​

and political arguments aren't what people come to CruxForums to enjoy.​

 

[The Fallen Angel]

I would like to make the proposal to set up an area reserved for other languages. In order that users can write in every language they like, the rule could apply that users state in the title which language they write in.

With regards

This has been discussed before and in some depth. The best compromise that we came up with was to post your story in your best English and ask if anyone would be happy to "polish it up". There are several linguists on the Forum but they are often busy doing exactly that. I'm sure that you would find at least one volunteer. Some examples of "polishing up" are very easy to spot for example "Her naked lions were defiled" and "Her well oiled mussels were stretched to breaking." If the original meaning of your text is understandable then using a bit of imagination many English speakers on this site could produce an improved version....give it a try!

 

[Eulalia]

I took up creative writing in English on a forum/role play game. It was quite an exercise, but I had great support from a forum member, a native (who happened to have a university degree in English, butthat was no means necessary) was kind enough to preview my works and comment/suggest on language issues. So, that woudl be my suggestion: if native speakers who feel equipped to do so would stand up and offer help, that would maybe persuade members with a different background to participate.

Yes, supporting what Melissa's just said,​

I've "stood up and offered help" a few times to polish up exciting stories for the Forums,​

can't promise to be always or instantly available,​

but enjoy helping when I can.​

 

[Fantasmo]

it's amazing when you disagree with a black person, such as our president, it can only be because you are racist, not that you just disagree.

Unfortunately this "card" is being played a lot by certain groups (ethnic & religious/political) ("No Politics" ) who are trying to lift their actions beyond any judgment using this B.S. statement.

But I don't respect this response, nor do I let myself limit in my behavior.
A limit has been reached if the truth cannot be said any more.

But we are getting O.T. with this.

 

[Fantasmo]

This has been discussed before and in some depth. The best compromise that we came up with was to post your story in your best English and ask if anyone would be happy to "polish it up".

That works fine for stories (finding somebody isn't all that easy if one doesn't know the people here), but I think Abendlaender's focus is more on discussions. There you can't rely on sending it to somebody for "polishing up", you need to be faster. That's why I proposed the dual-language thing.

 

[Fantasmo]

I'm often uneasy about the stereotypic portrayal of the Islamic, especially Arab, world, in some of our content,​

​

Oh well, but there is a historic background to this, isn't it? And it's not political statements but just a piece of fantasy.​

I am 100% sure that the other way round the same stereotypes are being used.​

I am concerned only if these stereotypes are being "believed" and taken as reality... on both sides!​

​

​

but whatever our race, creed or colour, we all have to be willing to be 'naked and exposed' on this site,​

with skins (of whatever colour) thick enough to put up with a bit of pain!​

​

Yes, any skin color makes for a nice contrast with old, rough wood, and the only racism I can see would be to exclude one color from this "delight"! ​

​

​