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Roman Resources

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Naraku said:
The linothorax may have been fine against bronze weapons, but by the time of the Romans - at least the by the Punic wars - most weapons were made of iron. While the linothorax could still stop arrows, it was likely no match for an iron sword or axe.
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I am going to strongly disagree. Ordinary winter clothing provides a surprisingly high degree of resistance to sharpened steel swords. Further bronze swords lent themselves to leaf shaped blades which are ridiculously good cutters and can deliver a thrust with prejudice. The issues with bronze was that it was far more expensive than haphazardly carbonised iron aka the kind of primitive steel available and that it does not hold an edge for as long.

Ironworking has steadily improved but it would be some time before the available iron (actually in service a rather poorly understood steel) could truly be said to be harder than bronze (but note hardness is not all you want from a sword or spear tip metal).

As far as I can tell linothorax went out of fashion because they were relatively hard work to make and mail became progressively cheaper or at least more available. However there are going to be big gaps in the linothorax archaeology because it is a biodegradable material so we may never truly know for how long they should keep turning up.
 
Naraku said:
The linothorax may have been fine against bronze weapons, but by the time of the Romans - at least the by the Punic wars - most weapons were made of iron. While the linothorax could still stop arrows, it was likely no match for an iron sword or axe.
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RacingRodent said:
The issues with bronze was that it was far more expensive than haphazardly carbonised iron aka the kind of primitive steel available
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Now I'm not an expert on ancient metallurgy by any means,
but when it comes to bronze vs iron/haphazard steel
of course to make bronze one would need both copper and tin,
and especially tin ores are not all that common.
(though one also doesn't find copper just everywhere.)
So there had to be a lot of long distance trade, and indeed bronze was quite precious.

Once iron had been figured out, this was much easier to source.
Iron ores are pretty much the most common of all,
you did not need to combine two rare ores,
- in fact many cultures kickstarted with bog iron, and only later smelted directly from mineral ores.
and the other major resources would be charcoal, clay, and water.

So iron had a big advantage in production and was less dependent on distant trade.
Until steel had been properly worked out, early iron weapons might even have been inferior to bronze ones,
but there could be far more of them.

And as RR says, as steelmaking was perfected and scaled up, it might have become more cost-effective at some point to make metal armor,

RacingRodent said:
Ordinary winter clothing provides a surprisingly high degree of resistance to sharpened steel swords.
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Russian coats I think proved remarkably resilient sometimes...
 
Even linen canvas used by artists stands up to pretty rough treatment, and linen canvas sailcloth would be at least as strong as leather. Not very comfortable to wear, but better than metal.
 
Want to dig deeper into village slave raids, like the one St. Patrick was taken in, and see who was doing that and how they set up their business. If anyone has any sources on that they'd like to share I'd be thrilled.

Specifically, something I've wondered is what is the turnaround time for a someone being captured and then someone ending up on the auction block? If they are taken in a raid, does there need to be preliminary obedience training on a boat? Do they sell their captives in bulk to a slave trader, or do they try to to evaluate if they have any skill or traits that will raise their value? Do they need to go through months of training before they can be sold, or is their new owner expected to do most of the work in that department? Appreciate anyone's insight.
 
Praefectus Praetorio said:
From a brand name up there with Coke, Microsoft and McDonald's, SPQR brings you Pullum Parthicum!
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Actually I have asafoetida (in German also called Teufelsdreck, lit. Devil's Dirt) around always in my kitchen, it features in a certain set of Indian recipes.
Funny also that lovage (G. Liebstöckel) is exotic for him, it's basically the most common thing ever here...
 
malins said:
Actually I have asafoetida (in German also called Teufelsdreck, lit. Devil's Dirt) around always in my kitchen, it features in a certain set of Indian recipes.
Funny also that lovage (G. Liebstöckel) is exotic for him, it's basically the most common thing ever here...
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You can grow the plants in the US but not found in food stores.

Are you going to make the chicken and tell us how it tastes?
 
malins said:
Actually I have asafoetida (in German also called Teufelsdreck, lit. Devil's Dirt) around always in my kitchen, it features in a certain set of Indian recipes.
Funny also that lovage (G. Liebstöckel) is exotic for him, it's basically the most common thing ever here...
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Yes, I use it - hing in Hindi. Heat up the oil or ghee and drop in a pinch of the stuff before anything else goes in, delicious aroma, (well, I like it, it's a Marmite love-it-or-loathe-it taste), a sort of musky, smoky taste that blends with other spices, sets them off well, especially good with greens - cabbage, spinach, mustard leaves etc.
 
I've got a pomegranate in my fruit and veg box this week. I've been studying Margaret Shaida's classic 'The Legendary Cuisine of Persia', for the recipe for Fesenjan, a very traditional Persian (and probably even Parthian) dish of feathered game with pomegranate and walnuts. I've got a brace of grouse in the freezer, a happy coincidence!
 
Yes, when lockdown started back in early spring, I was having to find ways of making lots of root veg interesting - lots of neeps, tatties, etc. But now more weird and wonderful things are turning up, and although my supplier would get me specific things or leave others out if I asked, I'm happy to discover what's in my box and seek out fun things to do with them. And the cookery traditions that extend from the Med through the Middle East, Armenia, Central Asia, Iran, Afghanistan to north India do appeal to me - as you say, exciting mixtures of meat, veg, spices, fruit and dairy products - many of which are similar to 'Roman' cuisine (which was of course very much influenced by ingredients and recipes brought by traders, soldiers and slaves from those regions)
 
Praefectus Praetorio said:
From a brand name up there with Coke, Microsoft and McDonald's, SPQR brings you Pullum Parthicum!
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Interesting historical anecdotes (which could be useful for a background story).:icon_writing:

Meanwhile, I plan to try it out, on the condition I find the ingredients!:hambre:
I'll let you all know!:icon_tfno:

And an answer to the question : "On what website did you find that recipe?":roto2palm:
 
malins said:
Now I'm not an expert on ancient metallurgy by any means,
but when it comes to bronze vs iron/haphazard steel
of course to make bronze one would need both copper and tin,
and especially tin ores are not all that common.
(though one also doesn't find copper just everywhere.)
So there had to be a lot of long distance trade, and indeed bronze was quite precious.

Once iron had been figured out, this was much easier to source.
Iron ores are pretty much the most common of all,
you did not need to combine two rare ores,
- in fact many cultures kickstarted with bog iron, and only later smelted directly from mineral ores.
and the other major resources would be charcoal, clay, and water.

So iron had a big advantage in production and was less dependent on distant trade.
Until steel had been properly worked out, early iron weapons might even have been inferior to bronze ones,
but there could be far more of them.

And as RR says, as steelmaking was perfected and scaled up, it might have become more cost-effective at some point to make metal armor,


Russian coats I think proved remarkably resilient sometimes...
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I think meteorite impacts (like the Sudbury basin in Ontario) are important sources of iron and other metals as well. I have read that there is a lot of gold in New Guinea because there is so much volcanic activity there, and gold "segregated" with iron to the earth's interior, and magma plumes tend to bring it to the surface. I assume that's true.
en.wikipedia.org

Abundance of elements in Earth's crust - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Frank Petrexa said:
I think meteorite impacts (like the Sudbury basin in Ontario) are important sources of iron and other metals as well.
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yes, that's true ... meteoric iron was used for instance by the Dorset people of Greenland, and the later Inuit arrivals who took over from them.
however they had to rely on chipping pieces off and cold-forging them.
For making arrowheads and such, a few dozen tons of meteoric iron were enough to trade them far and wide
... but of course you couldn't build an entire 'Iron Age' on that ...

The ancient Egyptians also, long before iron smelting, did that and may have been aware of the 'heavenly origins' ...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36432635
... both probably benefited from having wide open areas were 'funny looking rocks' could easily be identified ;)

meteoric iron, gold, silver and copper are those metals which can be found in elemental form on Earth,
so those will be the first to show up in ancient civilizations if they are available in the area or by trade.

Elemental copper will show up associated with the sulfide deposits; copper smelting was developed first.
Bronzes possibly were initially accidental alloys of copper and arsenic, which often show up together
- while 'arsenical bronze' has some different qualities from tin bronze, vs. pure copper it shares the advantages.
 
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In Iron Age Britain - especially the wetter parts in the west and north, and Ireland - bog iron was the main source, long before ways were found for extracting and smelting iron ore from the rocks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_iron
 
malins said:
yes, that's true ... meteoric iron was used for instance by the Dorset people of Greenland, and the later Inuit arrivals who took over from them.
however they had to rely on chipping pieces off and cold-forging them.
For making arrowheads and such, a few dozen tons of meteoric iron were enough to trade them far and wide
... but of course you couldn't build an entire 'Iron Age' on that ...

The ancient Egyptians also, long before iron smelting, did that and may have been aware of the 'heavenly origins' ...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36432635
... both probably benefited from having wide open areas were 'funny looking rocks' could easily be identified ;)

meteoric iron, gold, silver and copper are those metals which can be found in elemental form on Earth,
so those will be the first to show up in ancient civilizations if they are available in the area or by trade.

Elemental copper will show up associated with the sulfide deposits; copper smelting was developed first.
Bronzes possibly were initially accidental alloys of copper and arsenic, which often show up together
- while 'arsenical bronze' has some different qualities from tin bronze, vs. pure copper it shares the advantages.
Click to expand...
You will notice from the article that "rare earths" aren't so rare. They're just hard to extract.
 
Frank Petrexa said:
You will notice from the article that "rare earths" aren't so rare. They're just hard to extract.
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True, but for ancient civilizations ... or even early industrial ones ... the ease of extraction is essential.

You can't pan a stream for pure neodymium or niobium nuggets, although as elements, they are far more common than gold. It's just that they're always bound up with other substances.

And well, silicon is ridiculously common but getting it into pure form isn't so easy.
 
Frank Petrexa said:
You will notice from the article that "rare earths" aren't so rare. They're just hard to extract.
Click to expand...
They are not rare and they are hard to extract, but the biggest difficulty is that they are not found in high concentrations. Their chemistry combined with geographical issues mean that they are dispersed without rich ore deposits.
 
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