Legionaries as Executioners, Not Likely .......

[willowfall]

Been rereading my history books and a couple of articles on the Roman Empire got me to thinking about how Rome is portrayed in our art and Hollywood.

Generally our art of the period portrays the Legionaries as doing the executions (as Hollywood portrays Legionaries on every corner), yet the Legions formed only a small part of the Roman military machine. The mobile part the combat part.

For much of the first century BCE the Legions numbered no more than 30. Or about 150,000 Legionaries. And the vast majority of these legions were posted on the frontiers . So for example just before the Jewish rebellion of 66 BCE there were two Legions in Syria (facing the Parthians) and one in Egypt but none in Palestine itself. Obviously the rebeliion changed that.

But the point is they didn't have the numbers necessary nor were they local enough to be involved in cruxing the vast majoirty of the prisoners sentenced to death.

The significance of this (for our artistic purposes) is that the local law enforcement was carried out by local militia. Equipped and run by the local rulers (who reported to Roman Governors).

So, for example, despite the New Testament accounts the crucifixtion of Jesus would have been carried out by local militia forces armed according to local customs not Roman standards. In the case of the New Testament (written well after the fact and after the Romans had destroyed the local Jewish governments and take direct control) the Romans made a convenient scapegoat, particularly since the early Christian groups recruited heavily out of the Jewish population.

Not local doesn't necessarily mean the guy down the block. For example the local militia forces during the Herodic period would have been native Palestinians (even if they may not have been Jewish). But after Herod;s dynasty ended they could have been Bedoin, Egyptian or Syrian. At least for the real dirty work.

Maybe I'm just a romanic pulling for the Legionary who seems to be getting a bad rap. Or maybe the thought of being punished, raped and executed by the local boys is or if I was a pious Jew having those dirty Syrians doing me is both more terrifying and erotic.

kisses

willowfall

 

[apostate630]

Good gosh, Willowfall, of course most crucifixions were carried out by working stiffs, not legionaries in full armor.

I also came across this some time back.

"If anyone wishes a slave--male or female--punished privately, he who wishes to have the punishment inflicted shall do as follows. If the wants to put the slave on the cross or fork [i.e. crucify him], the contractor must supply the posts, chains, ropes for the floggers and the floggers themselves. The person having the punishment inflicted is to pay 4 sesterces for each of the operatives who carry the fork, and the same for the floggers and the executioner.

"The magistrate will give orders for such punishments as he exacts in his public capacity, and when orders are given, the contractor is to be ready to exact the punishment. He is to set up crosses and supply without charge nails, pitch, wax, tapers and anything else that is necessary for this in order to deal with the condemned man. Again, if he is ordered to drag away the corpse with a hook, the work-gang is to be dressed in red and ring a bell while dragging away the body, or bodies if there are several.

"If a commission is given to remove a hanged man, he (the contractor) is to see to its fulfillment and the removal (of the body) within the hour. If it is for a male or female slave, if the notification is received before the tenth hour, removal is to be effected the same day; if it is after the tenth hour, then before the second hour of the following day."

Alan Baker, The Gladiator (New York: Thomas Dunne Books, 2000) pp. 133-34.

 

[ERIN the Brave]

Good gosh, Willowfall, of course most crucifixions were carried out by working stiffs, not legionaries in full armor.

I also came across this some time back.

"If anyone wishes a slave--male or female--punished privately, he who wishes to have the punishment inflicted shall do as follows. If the wants to put the slave on the cross or fork [i.e. crucify him], the contractor must supply the posts, chains, ropes for the floggers and the floggers themselves. The person having the punishment inflicted is to pay 4 sesterces for each of the operatives who carry the fork, and the same for the floggers and the executioner.

"The magistrate will give orders for such punishments as he exacts in his public capacity, and when orders are given, the contractor is to be ready to exact the punishment. He is to set up crosses and supply without charge nails, pitch, wax, tapers and anything else that is necessary for this in order to deal with the condemned man. Again, if he is ordered to drag away the corpse with a hook, the work-gang is to be dressed in red and ring a bell while dragging away the body, or bodies if there are several.

"If a commission is given to remove a hanged man, he (the contractor) is to see to its fulfillment and the removal (of the body) within the hour. If it is for a male or female slave, if the notification is received before the tenth hour, removal is to be effected the same day; if it is after the tenth hour, then before the second hour of the following day."

Alan Baker, The Gladiator (New York: Thomas Dunne Books, 2000) pp. 133-34.

Good pic, did you draw it yourself?

 

[Hammerlock]

My understanding is that the crucifixions themselves were carried out by local magistrates and their hired thugs, and the legionnaires were there for security purposes, to keep the watching crowd in line and at bay.

 

[apostate630]

Good pic, did you draw it yourself?

Good Lord, no Connie. That's from Yusebby. Send me your email address and I'll send you collection.

 

[willowfall]

My understanding is that the crucifixions themselves were carried out by local magistrates and their hired thugs, and the legionnaires were there for security purposes, to keep the watching crowd in line and at bay.

Not unless it was where a Legion was stationed.

Local security was carried out by local militia (think State troopers in the USA, National Police in other countries).

The Legions were strictly for Border patrol duty, wars against real opponents (like the Parthians) and putting down insurrections that the loacal militia couldn't handle (like Judea in 66 BCE).

In fact the Legions were only called in locally as a last resort. For example during the Sparticus rebellion, Kirk Douglas not withstanding, Sparticus and company ran up their record against local militias (armed like the legions since they were in Italy but with no where near the training and combat experieince). It wasn't until Pompey and Company were called up that the Legions got involved and finished the fight.

Think of the Legions as the Army not the Police. And the Police were responsible for the local law enforcement including executions.

kisses

willowfall

 

[Hammerlock]

I bow to your superior wisdom and knowledge!

 

[Naraku]

My understanding is that the crucifixions themselves were carried out by local magistrates and their hired thugs, and the legionnaires were there for security purposes, to keep the watching crowd in line and at bay.

Not unless it was where a Legion was stationed.

Local security was carried out by local militia (think State troopers in the USA, National Police in other countries).

The Legions were strictly for Border patrol duty, wars against real opponents (like the Parthians) and putting down insurrections that the loacal militia couldn't handle (like Judea in 66 BCE).

In fact the Legions were only called in locally as a last resort. For example during the Sparticus rebellion, Kirk Douglas not withstanding, Sparticus and company ran up their record against local militias (armed like the legions since they were in Italy but with no where near the training and combat experieince). It wasn't until Pompey and Company were called up that the Legions got involved and finished the fight.

Think of the Legions as the Army not the Police. And the Police were responsible for the local law enforcement including executions.

kisses

willowfall

But, legionaires would have carried out the crucifixions during the revolt in Judea, as well as following the revolts of Spartacus & Boudica, because they would have been the only labor force available to do the job. They also would have carried out ordinary judicial crucifixions in places where they were the enforcers of Roman authority, such as the German frontier. You are correct though, that most judicial crucifixions would have been carried out by professional executioners.

Also, some historians claim that Crassus was mostly responsible for breaking up Sparatcus' slave army & that Pompey pretty much carried out a mop up operation. But, Pompey got back to Rome 1st & had more friends in the Senate, so he got all the credit.

 

[willowfall]

But, legionaires would have carried out the crucifixions during the revolt in Judea, as well as following the revolts of Spartacus & Boudica, because they would have been the only labor force available to do the job. They also would have carried out ordinary judicial crucifixions in places where they were the enforcers of Roman authority, such as the German frontier. You are correct though, that most judicial crucifixions would have been carried out by professional executioners.

Also, some historians claim that Crassus was mostly responsible for breaking up Sparatcus' slave army & that Pompey pretty much carried out a mop up operation. But, Pompey got back to Rome 1st & had more friends in the Senate, so he got all the credit.

Maybe maybe not.

A Legion consisted of 3000 to 5000 Legionaries and then there were auxlillaries who were attached. If a Legion didn't have something better to do (like besiege the next city on the list) they may have carried out crucifixtions. Otherwise if they had more pressing tasks any followup executions of prisoners would have been carried out by auxillary forces. When the Jews revolted in 66 AD the Romans committed three legions to put down the revolt (or approximately 9000 - 15000 legionaries). Do you really think that the Roman commander was going to waste his highly trained mainline combat troops in minor mop-up operations? Besides which the legionaries were also highly trained engineers, they'd be busy repairing fortifications the Jews had destroyed or destroying fortifications the Jews had used. The X Legion spent months reducing Masada and by that time was the only legion still in Judea. They couldn't have been reducing Masada and running around the whole country cruxing people.

With Spartacus's revolt Crassus originally commanded militia. The 'garrison of Rome' was NOT Legionaries. They were militia equippied (but not trained) as legionaries. The legions finally did crush the revolt and yes, since they were on hand and had nothing better to do they would have executed the criminals. But that was an exception not the rule. Once the revolt was crushed they would have returned to their home bases not hung around Italy doing minor tasks like cruxing common criminals.

As for the British revolt, there was very little left of the Legions after the fight and again they could not have been going around Britian cruxing large numbers of people. That would be counter-productive. Once the revolt was broken and the rebel army destroyed or dispersed the legions went back to their posts to watch the rest of the Britons (who didn't participate). Of the 5 to 6 that generally garrisoned Britain when things were bad 4 or more were always up on the border watching the bad guys to the north.

However all over the empire there were significant numbers of ex-Legionaires who had been settled in colonies. Loundinium for example was once such colony of ex-Legionaries. In many cases the ex-legionaires were part of or support for the local militia. In that capacity they probably helped out with routine judicial executions.

By and large the existance of these few large scale revolts prove the point. The legions could and did perform executions when they were called in or where they were stationed but they were few and far between (only 25 during the life of Christ and none in Judea) and would not have been as omnipresent as our art, the Bible or Hollywood presents them to be.

kisses

willowfall

 

[Deleted member jedakk]

I don't buy it.

Too many sweeping statements, no support for any of them. You need to cite some real, classical sources such as Suetonius, Tacitus, Cassius Dio, Josephus, etc. to back up what you are saying. I agree that criminals were normally crucified by the local Carnifex Servorum and his aides rather than soldiers, but I think you are going overboard in minimizing the role of the legions in performing crucifixions in frontier areas and following revolts.

25 crucifixions during the life of Christ? What historian wrote that? There's not even any official record of Christ's crucifixion, so how would we know precisely how many criminals went to the cross during his lifetime?


Jedakk

 

[willowfall]

Re: I don't buy it.

25 crucifixions during the life of Christ? What historian wrote that? There's not even any official record of Christ's crucifixion, so how would we know precisely how many criminals went to the cross during his lifetime?


Jedakk

That's 25 Legions love, not crucifixtions.

Augustus reduced the number to that right after the civil wars. And then lost three of them in Germany in about 9 AD.

As to classical historians. They can only be used for generalities not specifics bacuse they didn't approach history in the same manner as we do. Read ANY modern history book and classical historians are used a starting point because they lack concrete details and tended to write to embellish the feats of their patrons. Furthermore many of their writings refenernce works that are no long extant, therefore we don't know the value of their source material.

Josephus is actually a great example of the inaccuracy of ancient historians despite being an eyewitness. If you read his writings about Masada and compare that to archeological evidence you find many of his statements are exaggerations. For example he seems to indicate that the X Legion was beseiging Masada for three years, yet we know from other records that after the fall of Jerusalem the Romans actually knocked off a number of other locations before they got around to Masada. The actual seige took about 6 months. The great ramp is actually a much smaller ramp built on top of a natural spur that already existed on the western side of the massif. The ramp was still an amazing engineering feat but not nearly as tough as Josephus originally made it out to be. Also the 'mass suicide' committed by the defenders was (for the time period) for lack of a better way of putting it, a literary cliche used in a number of cases.

I am not saying that the Legions did not execute rebels when they crushed a rebellion, nor that they sometimes were not involved in 'police' work where they were stationed.

What I am saying is that at the time of Christ there were NO legions in Palestine, therefore his execution would have been carried out by local militia. Furthermore there usually were NO legions in Italy proper, therefore executions there would have been the responsibilty of the militia.

What is portrayed in a lot of our art is the omnipresent villian, the legionary, and he just wasn't in that many places through out the empire.

And where he was he mostly functioned as the Empire's engineering corp. That was his specialtiy. If you look at Trajian's (or was it Hadrian's?) Column you will see a large number of the Legionary motifs represent engineering feats and combat feats but no 'police' work motifs.

They did it but not nearly as often as we blame them for doing it.

kisses

willowfall

 

[Hammerlock]

While on the subject of Josephus and his questionable accuracy, it has to be remembered that he quoted at length the final speech of the Zealot leader at Masada, despite the fact that he was not there, nor were there any survivors he could have gotten the speech from. Yet he recites it as word-for-word truth.

Also, interestingly, they've only found a few skeletons on Masada, and those may have been skeletons of Roman soldiers that died there after the occupation of the site. Also, they have not found any trace of the mass grave that would have been there if the defenders had, indeed, committed mass suicide. There would have been either a mass grave or evidence of a mass cremation on the site, and there isn't any, despite years of search, excavations, and study.

What really was the end result of the seige of Masada is unknown, but Josephus obviously was trying to impart a "noble" aspect to it. An archaeologist once told me that the first thing we have to consider about sources is their accuracy, and it seems that Josephus may not have been all that accurate--or truthful.

I like to imagine that the defenders were all crucified.....

 

[Naraku]

While on the subject of Josephus and his questionable accuracy, it has to be remembered that he quoted at length the final speech of the Zealot leader at Masada, despite the fact that he was not there, nor were there any survivors he could have gotten the speech from. Yet he recites it as word-for-word truth.

Also, interestingly, they've only found a few skeletons on Masada, and those may have been skeletons of Roman soldiers that died there after the occupation of the site. Also, they have not found any trace of the mass grave that would have been there if the defenders had, indeed, committed mass suicide. There would have been either a mass grave or evidence of a mass cremation on the site, and there isn't any, despite years of search, excavations, and study.

What really was the end result of the seige of Masada is unknown, but Josephus obviously was trying to impart a "noble" aspect to it. An archaeologist once told me that the first thing we have to consider about sources is their accuracy, and it seems that Josephus may not have been all that accurate--or truthful.

I like to imagine that the defenders were all crucified.....

Josephus says that 2 women, along with 5 children, hid when the killing started & were later found by the Romans. They are his source for both the story of the final hours & the speech by Eleazar.

You are correct that some historians question Josephus' account. The whole thing parallels his own version of the siege of Jotapata, where he was in command of the Jewish forces. Josephus & 40 of his men were the last hold outs & decided to kill each other, rather than be taken alive. As at Masada, it was not really a mass suicide, but a series of killings. Lots were draw & the men took turns killing each other. Josephus either got luck or manipulated the drawing so that he was one of the last 2 & he convinced his comrad that they should surrender. The story of Masada may have be invented or altered by Josephus to justify his own actions at Jotapata.

Josephus may or may not have been a liar. But, there clearly was a siege at Masada. As to not finding a mass grave: "The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

 

[willowfall]

Well we have to remember that in those days a histroian was telling a "story" based on fact. The siege of Masada did happen but he had to embellish it to make his audience interested in it. He was also a POW and in effect he wrote to put his captor in the light of a heroic figure worth of being the Roman Emperor (which he became).

He is not alone in this.

Shakespear was a Tudor propagandist.

The Traditional American account of Little Bighorn is really nothing more than a story pushed by Libby Custer to deify the memory of her beloved husband (and other relatives) which had little bearing on the true event. Native accounts are much closer to the archeological evidence than the traditional account.

The problem with much of ancient history is that very little documentation is still extant. Much of what is extant is based on earlier works that no longer exist. Furthermore that which does exist has been translated multiple times and ancient words may have had meanings which we do not fully understand today leading to mistranslation.

For example to my incomplete knowledge there exists only one fragment of a skeleton (an ankle bone) of a man who MAY have been cruxed. Pretty scanty physical evidence of a form of execution that we fantasize was widely used.

SO we always have to be careful when reviewing historical accounts.

But then of course this is fantasy so all of us can put in whatever we want. So have all the legionaries you want in your art boys.

Afterall the fantasy of being turned over to eight (the smallest official unit in a legion) horny testosterone drenched battleweary Legionaries for a nigth of their pleasure before being whipped and cruxed can be quite erotic.

I just provided the information I did as historical background.

kisses

willowfall

 

[Hammerlock]

Yes, you're right--I looked up in my archaeological books and confirmed that there were indeed survivors at Masada--my bad, forgot to check my sources . And yes, there was indeed a siege at Masada, confirmed by archaeology. And okay, okay, I guess I deserved to have it thrown at me: the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Ironic, since that's a quote I put on all my e-mails.

So anyway, we've kinda strayed off-topic, but Willowfall is right--these are our fantasies, so plug whatever and whomever you want to in there, then sit back and enjoy! I've never felt that historical accuracy is all that important when you're dealing with fantasies.

 

[Deleted member jedakk]

For example to my incomplete knowledge there exists only one fragment of a skeleton (an ankle bone) of a man who MAY have been cruxed. Pretty scanty physical evidence of a form of execution that we fantasize was widely used.

I agree. I emailed Joe Zias, the archeologist who came up with the most recent version of the nails-through-the-heels scenario, and asked him how he arrived at that. His reply to me was that a lot of people were crucified about that time in Judea, and maybe this was one of them. Seems like pretty slim logic to me, but many people have embraced this theory as the absolute truth when it's nothing but a "rectal extraction" in reality.

First of all, the physics of this scenario bother me. With the feet nailed flat against the stipes, there is only a vertical component pressing downward on the shanks of the nails, but with the feet nailed through the heelbones to the sides of the cross, there is a large torsional, or twisting, force on the nail. When I calculate an estimate of that based on the weight of an average size man, it looks to be enough to actually twist a wrought-iron nail of the size that was found. But it would certainly crack or shatter the heelbone before that happened. Obviously, the heelbone is intact, so my belief is that the heels could never have been nailed to the sides of the cross as theorized by Zias. Perhaps this was a victim who was crucified upside down? Seems more likely to me, but there are other scenarios.

Second, there is the business about wooden plaques being used under the nailheads so that they would not pull through the wrists or feet. That seems impossible simply based on a look at the bone structure the large heads of those Roman nails would have had to be pulled through - especially so if we are talking about pulling a one-inch diameter nailhead through a person's heel bone. If wooden plaques were ever actually used, perhaps it was to keep the rough edges of the nail heads from cutting into a wrist or foot and opening a vein, causing the victim to bleed to death. This would be even more likely if the nails bent under the victim's weight, forcing the lower edge of the nail head against the flesh.


Jedakk

 

[Naraku]

Yes, you're right--I looked up in my archaeological books and confirmed that there were indeed survivors at Masada--my bad, forgot to check my sources . And yes, there was indeed a siege at Masada, confirmed by archaeology. And okay, okay, I guess I deserved to have it thrown at me: the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Ironic, since that's a quote I put on all my e-mails.
So anyway, we've kinda strayed off-topic, but Willowfall is right--these are our fantasies, so plug whatever and whomever you want to in there, then sit back and enjoy! I've never felt that historical accuracy is all that important when you're dealing with fantasies.

No shit? I was quoting Gin Rummy from The Boondocks. You're right of course. We shouldn't let historical nitpicking mess up perfectly good fantasy. Rock on, y'all!

 

[ERIN the Brave]

Yes, you're right--I looked up in my archaeological books and confirmed that there were indeed survivors at Masada--my bad, forgot to check my sources . And yes, there was indeed a siege at Masada, confirmed by archaeology. And okay, okay, I guess I deserved to have it thrown at me: the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Ironic, since that's a quote I put on all my e-mails.
So anyway, we've kinda strayed off-topic, but Willowfall is right--these are our fantasies, so plug whatever and whomever you want to in there, then sit back and enjoy! I've never felt that historical accuracy is all that important when you're dealing with fantasies.

No shit? I was quoting Gin Rummy from The Boondocks. You're right of course. We shouldn't let historical nitpicking mess up perfectly good fantasy. Rock on, y'all!

Yes I agree,this is our fantasy,so crux on and enjoy!!

 

[jonesygirl]

Hi jedakk,
I recently watched a History programme where the researchers thought they may have discovered the tomb of Christ and his family. Crucifixion was mentioned and another tomb not far away was opened. Clearly visible was a man’s ankle bone with a very corroded but obvious nail still in place through the side of his ankle. I didn’t record the programme but it’ll be on again.
My mechanics isn’t as good as my pure maths but I’d have thought nails of 1 inch diameter would cause so much damage going through bone and muscle etc that any rotation about the horizontal axis of the nail would be free from torsion. The Romans were the best Engineers of their time so I’m sure they’d only use equipment up to the job. Assuming a man weighs 200lb ( approx 88Kg) and that the majority of his weight is taken by the ankle nails, then the max. downward force on each nail is only 432N. If the width of his ankle is 8cm then that gives a bending moment of 432 x 0.04 = 17.28 N-m. If that nail was a 1m rod held firmly at one end then the same bending moment could be achieved by hanging a bag of 14 apples from the other end. I just weighed our apples. Mel says I'm turning into a sad anorak. I don’t recall reading about Roman troop carriers suffering from metal fatigue.
I’m still waiting to get into the bathroom. Buggerlugs beat me to it. We’re going to see Mamma Mia tonight.

Best wishes
Julie

 

[Deleted member jedakk]

I agree, 1-inch diameter nails would cause catastrophic damage and then there would be nothing but badly damaged soft tissue to support the victim's weight. But although the heads of the ones I have seen are close to one inch in diameter, the square shanks are only around 3/8" - 1/2" square, tapered along their length of course. And the heel bone that was found with a nail through it is not shattered.

I did read some time back on a website that dealt with bioengineering that living bone is much less brittle and subject to shattering than even the (hopefully) fresh bone we are used to seeing in cuts of meat. Possibly that accounts for how someone could drive a large nail through a calcaneous bone without it shattering.

As far as torsion calculations, I assumed a 150 lb. man since people were generally not as large back in classical times as is common today. I also estimated the length of the lever arm as being the horizontal distance from the point where the heel would be nailed to the cross to the center of mass of the victim's body. If his back was against the cross, maybe that would only be a foot or so, and with his weight pressing down on the nails, the moment would be about 150 ft-lbs. But victims tend to arch their bodies outward when trying to rise, and this would be even more pronounced with the heels already so far back behind his center of mass. I estimated the lever arm in that case to be about the length of a man's lower leg from the position of the nail to the bend of the knee - about 1.5 feet, which would produce a moment of 225 ft-lbs which is conservative. His center of mass would actually probably be farther out than that, but these are only estimates. My torsion calculations indicated that this moment would exceed the yield strength of the kind of wrought-iron the Romans made, which according to the best information I could find is about 27k psi. I can only speculate that bone would fail and crush at a lower stress than that. But again, that heelbone that was found with a nail through it was not cracked or shattered, so I doubt that victim, if he was actually crucified, was crucified in the way the archeologists would have us believe.


Jedakk