(historical) Crucifixion And Masochist Feelings

[Abendlaender]

Hi everybody,

during the last time, I have read some stories dealing about torture in general and crucifixion. As I am a thoughtful man, I am wondering how far real masochist feelings can reach into fantasies in the mind of persons after I have come across extreme BDSM stuff.

It is clear that most of us cannot imagine to enjoy or love pain. However, I have learnt that a tiny minority have feelings opposite to the mainstream and another minority can stand much more pain than the mainstream. It is not imaginable for us, but is it possible that single crucifixion victims might have enjoyed a bit their punishment? Is one case perhaps recorded in historical ressources that everybody had been astonished about a victim´s brave behavior like bedding him- or herself deliberately onto the cross and no resistance at all?Is it possible that a few hardcore masochists can NEVER get enough?

Greetings to all

 

[Marythe1]

The body-will survives. (even the sharpest pain can't take that away.)

 

[Abendlaender]

What do you mean with body-will? Could you explain it more in detail because I do not get what you mean. Thank you.

 

[Marythe1]

What do you mean with body-will? Could you explain it more in detail because I do not get what you mean. Thank you.

When you get knocked out, KO, your whole body goes into shock and your conscious self leave you momentarily, but the body survives. When you're tortured, the point it to break your mind, but the body survives. The body-will is Nietzschean, it refers to the will to power as applied not to the pyschological self but to the corporeal self.

 

[Fantasmo]

It is clear that most of us cannot imagine to enjoy or love pain. However, I have learnt that a tiny minority have feelings opposite to the mainstream and another minority can stand much more pain than the mainstream.

I think this should be stated a bit differently, to be correct: The large majority isn't open to this very special variation of sexuality. BUT, once prejudices are pushed aside, many actually are capable to understand and experience.
I had 3 girlfriends who didn't care about BDSM or even had negative feelings. All of them "discovered" it...

It is not imaginable for us, but is it possible that single crucifixion victims might have enjoyed a bit their punishment?

Barely!
One essential component is missing, the generally erotic entry!
BDSM is not a bag full of practices like whipping etc. it's a complex mesh of instincts, body reactions, intellectual excitement and so on, coming together in the right way in order to generate an exciting situation.

I am pretty sure that the largest of all whip lovers would feel no excitement what so ever when being caught by the "police" and being whipped in the "police dungeon"
Because the context isn't erotic!

So I have my doubts that any real victim did take pleasure.
This is just wishful thinking of kinksters

 

[Eulalia]

I am pretty sure that the largest of all whip lovers would feel no excitement what so ever when being caught by the "police" and being whipped in the "police dungeon"

T E Lawrence (of Arabia) wrote of experiencing erotic enjoyment when he was captured and whipped by Ottoman police -
it was for him the beginning of a deeply masochistic life.

More in my ballpark, martyrs (like the virgin martyrs I keep writing about in Milestones to poor THT's frustration!) deliberately courted torture and cruel death for motives that - in my opinion - were at least as 'fleshly' as 'spiritual'. I don't mean they just did it for an ultimate masochistic kick, but their sufferings were an erotic experience, for female virigins, it was the beginning of unending (sexual) bliss as 'brides of Christ'.

 

[thehangingtree]

"More in my ballpark, martyrs (like the virgin martyrs I keep writing about in Milestones to poor THT's frustration!)" Eulalia

After all I've done to her she saves me from typing a rant... not that that and a cup of Eulalia special grind coffee will get her any mercy...
Tree

 

[Fantasmo]

T E Lawrence (of Arabia) wrote of experiencing erotic enjoyment when he was captured and whipped by Ottoman police -
it was for him the beginning of a deeply masochistic life.

Good point!
But was the whipping of the police erotic or was it a starting point... like for many the corporal punishment at school may have been?

 

[Eulalia]

As I remember, he was expecting an utterly ghastly experience and was surprised to find he was enjoying it.
But, yes, he had undoubtedly been a masochist from (English public school) childhood.

 

[Fantasmo]

As I remember, he was expecting an utterly ghastly experience and was surprised to find he was enjoying it.
But, yes, he had undoubtedly been a masochist from (English public school) childhood.

That "helps". Closing the eyes and imagining something during the whipping actually may be an "escape strategy".
My point just was that fantasy and reality sometimes diverge.
Disturbing factors like fear of death are faded out or altered in our imagination, I'd guess that the chilling effect is big in reality.

 

[Abendlaender]

Interesting posts!
I think that masochist feelings centred around Jesus Christ in their mind might have played a role at the martyrs, too.

It is recorded that some martyrs had the burning demand to die a martyrs death, prayed for that and were in pleasure to finally endure the fate. I have read a few legends of martyr women who have been recorded to have fallen in pleasure when facing the cross. As well, the fates have probably been made even more cruel than they were in legend. I have read the statement that this was a similar thrill like todays thrillers and horror films on TV and in cinema today. The martyrs were the heros.

There might be more serious historical sources than legends that mention very brave victims.

Every masochist is probably different.
The example of Lawrence of Arabia shows me that there might be masochist who get aroused the most in non-consensual situations when they cannot stop it. Western countries are today bad places for this kind of people as we have no more judicial corporal punishment.

I wonder if there might be a few hardcore masochists who even feel like "the more suffering and pain, the more pleasant bodily feelings will mix into".

Greatings to all

 

[thehangingtree]

Good point!
But was the whipping of the police erotic or was it a starting point... like for many the corporal punishment at school may have been?

If you're talking the whipping of police (reality) or the "whipping of 'police'" (as you first expressed it, which I took as fantasy) there is a huge difference. While there are some who would be turned on by being beaten by real police I think they would be on (or beyond) the fringe of BDSM.

But there were a few women in my past that that very scenario of 'police' and 'prisoner' led to many enjoyable nights.

By the way, if your partner wants to try something completely different, try BDSS. Collar yourselves together with a chain between the collars that is short enough you have to strain to satisfy each other if you try to '69'. It is a rollplay that you are to have some bad thing, be it torture or your favorite form of execution, done to the both of you and this is your last night together.

Do NOT do this if you have to work the next day as you will not get much sleep and you might end up with a 'collar hickey all the way around your neck.

Tree

sigh

 

[Eulalia]

​

Disturbing factors like fear of death are faded out or altered in our imagination, I'd guess that the chilling effect is big in reality.​

​

People often surprise themselves in how they respond to extreme situations,​

I suppose it's to do with chemical/ metabolic responses that have been programmed in us by natural selection -​

and those bodily goings-on are similar to ones associated with different, very varied, situations -​

with pain, fear, anger, etc. - and with sexual arousal/ pleasure.​

masochist who get aroused the most in non-consensual situations when they cannot stop it

Yes, some degree of 'non-consensuality' is surely important for any masochist,​

the need to be captive, defenceless, at the mercy of my Torturer.​

​

I think under the surface, most people experience the closeness of ecstatic pleasure and exquisite pain,​

but they suppress the idea as too disturbing, are afraid of admitting it even to themselves,​

and those of us for whom it's a big thing that we've had to accept and come to terms with​

probably are a small minority.​

 

[Fantasmo]

If you're talking the whipping of police (reality) or the "whipping of 'police'" (as you first expressed it, which I took as fantasy) there is a huge difference.

Right, that's exactly the point!

But there were a few women in my past that that very scenario of 'police' and 'prisoner' led to many enjoyable nights.

Police, School, Crucifixion... we "play" it the way we are turned on, reality is different.

By the way, if your partner wants to try something completely different, try BDSS. Collar yourselves together with a chain between the collars that is short enough you have to strain to satisfy each other if you try to '69'. It is a rollplay that you are to have some bad thing, be it torture or your favorite form of execution, done to the both of you and this is your last night together.

Never to old to learn something new...
Never heard of that, BDSS hat an other meaning to me so far...

 

[Fantasmo]

People often surprise themselves in how they respond to extreme situations,​

I suppose it's to do with chemical/ metabolic responses that have been programmed in us by natural selection -​

and those bodily goings-on are similar to ones associated with different, very varied, situations -​

with pain, fear, anger, etc. - and with sexual arousal/ pleasure.​

​

Totally right. It's hard to predict how one would react and there sure are differences.​

Yes, some degree of 'non-consensulaity' is surely important for any masochist,​

the need to be captive, defenceless, at the mercy of my Torturer.​

​

That's the delicate balance for the Dom: To have that touch of "non-consensuality" / unpredictability that keeps things interesting and credible, while not overdoing it.​

​

​

I think under the surface, most people experience the closeness of ecstatic pleasure and exquisite pain, but they suppress the idea as too disturbing, are afraid of admitting it even to themselves, and those of us for whom it's a big thing that we've had to accept and come to terms with probably are a small minority.

I think the part of the population that is interested in the theme is >10%
But for most it is just an optical / mental stimulus and some of those fantasies are "way off", what occasionally leads to bad experiences if they try something.
It's hard to tell how big the "active BDSM player" percentage is, but I'd guess it's rather one magnitude smaller.

 

[PhilX]

This might be another digression, please excuse me if so!

It is interesting how an obsessive interest in BDSM or masochism a few centuries ago was classed as spiritual enlightenment.

On the thread elsewhere here (Moravian Conviction) Bagoas refers to Nicolaus Zinzendorf who put forward some pretty bizarre ideas, amongst them likening Christ's wound in his side to a vagina, or another that Christ's circumcised penis should be an 'object of meditation', he even suggested that men should be obliged to maintain an erection whilst praying! To go out now spreading such ideas would cause tremendous outrage but in his day it was taken seriously as spiritual theology!

Another holy person was Beata Villana delle Boti who in fifteenth century Florence became a nun in her late twenties & spent the rest of her life (not that long she was in her thirties when she died of some terrible disease) becoming obsessed by Christ's crucifixion. She had constantly in her mind the image of the crucified Christ (I suspect the image she saw wouldn't have been as coy as the fresco on the convent wall either!), she had a strong desire to emulate his suffering. Because she thought of crucifixion pretty well all the time & desperately wanted to be crucified she was considered a holy woman!

St Bridget of Sweden also had an obsession about Christ's suffering & sought all the details of every wound he received at the Passion.

Victor Hugo wrote a long digression in Les Miserables about nuns alone in their cells having sexual fantasies as they contemplated the crucifix on the wall.

All this seems to be a healthy interest in suffering, torture, blood, wounding, nakedness etc. the sort of stuff we are into here, yet we know it is just personal interest & sexual thrill, yet back in the past it was holy meditation. Odd how this has changed, our basic feelings haven't changed, just wrapped up in a different guise!

 

[Abendlaender]

Well, BDSM plays are as a whole consensual. The partners do certain things because they both want this play. By non-consensual as a whole, I am dealing with real situations outside BDSM. Many masochists do only enjoy pain as part of partnerships.

However, the example of Lawrence of Arabia is probably one of those who are enjoying a certain pain without regard of consensual in plays and non-consensual in real life. Could you give sources for masochist faith practice as mentioned above?

Greatings to all

 

[Abendlaender]

Well, BDSM plays are as a whole consensual. The partners do certain things because they both want this play. By non-consensual as a whole, I am dealing with real situations outside BDSM. Many masochists do only enjoy pain as part of partnerships.

However, the example of Lawrence of Arabia is probably one of those who are enjoying a certain pain without regard of consensual in plays and non-consensual in real life. Could you give sources for masochist faith practice as mentioned above?

Greatings to all

 

[ERIN the Brave]

I enjoy pain,and Jess loves to inflect it!

 

[messaline]

Practicing both, I can say that , for me, I make a great difference between reality and fantazy...
In reality, I couldn't envisage a practice out off a scenario, discussed between the two partners , a scenario enough definite, perhaps with some improvisations but always under control of the Dom and respecting the limits of the Sum...
In fantazy, I can accept to be harshly tortured , crucified with nails....
I think that I need that, to counterbalance what I can imagine and what I can support in reality, without irrecoverable wounds, as physical than psycological.
I can also think that some people (martyrs, extreme masochits...) can find pleasure (?) (Is it one ?) in great pains, even if their life is menaced : it will be interesting to search testimonies going in this direction...If somebody knows them...