(historical) Crucifixion And Masochist Feelings

[sebastian]

Thankfully I think most us, if not all who use the forum, realise our particular fantasy is just a fantasy and can never be practiced in reality apart from play between consenting adults within safe limits. Messaline raises an interesting question about whether anyone would have welcomed suffering under the inquisition or some other form of punishment. I suppose those engulfed in some extreme religious fervour might have looked forward to suffering execution with some ecstasy which would have soon disappeared when the real torment began .... We have our own little niche here, its not the only dark fetish, but one which is highly erotic and exciting when kept in its place.

 

[Eulalia]

This might be another digression, please excuse me if so!

It is interesting how an obsessive interest in BDSM or masochism a few centuries ago was classed as spiritual enlightenment.

On the thread elsewhere here (Moravian Conviction) Bagoas refers to Nicolaus Zinzendorf who put forward some pretty bizarre ideas, amongst them likening Christ's wound in his side to a vagina, or another that Christ's circumcised penis should be an 'object of meditation', he even suggested that men should be obliged to maintain an erection whilst praying! To go out now spreading such ideas would cause tremendous outrage but in his day it was taken seriously as spiritual theology!

Another holy person was Beata Villana delle Boti who in fifteenth century Florence became a nun in her late twenties & spent the rest of her life (not that long she was in her thirties when she died of some terrible disease) becoming obsessed by Christ's crucifixion. She had constantly in her mind the image of the crucified Christ (I suspect the image she saw wouldn't have been as coy as the fresco on the convent wall either!), she had a strong desire to emulate his suffering. Because she thought of crucifixion pretty well all the time & desperately wanted to be crucified she was considered a holy woman!

St Bridget of Sweden also had an obsession about Christ's suffering & sought all the details of every wound he received at the Passion.

Victor Hugo wrote a long digression in Les Miserables about nuns alone in their cells having sexual fantasies as they contemplated the crucifix on the wall.

All this seems to be a healthy interest in suffering, torture, blood, wounding, nakedness etc. the sort of stuff we are into here, yet we know it is just personal interest & sexual thrill, yet back in the past it was holy meditation. Odd how this has changed, our basic feelings haven't changed, just wrapped up in a different guise!

Others in the same spirit include St Teresa of Avila's mystical experience of having her heart pierced by an arrow thrust in her by an angel.
and St Catherine of Sienna praying so fervently to experience the wounds of Christ that she actually received them (the stigmata - as St Francis had done 3 centuries earlier, though in more ascetic, less erotic, style). The emphasis on contemplating, empathising with and actually experiencing the sufferings of Christ was especially strong in the devotional piety of the 15th - 16th centuries - the Spiritual Exercises of St Ignatius Loyola lead to this kind of intense visualisation. While all of these remained "acceptable", indeed greatly admired in the Catholic Church, their erotic/ masochistic implications are very obvious, and could easily spill over into less acceptable forms of behaviour and expression.

 

[Marythe1]

Here's a bit of interest more suited for a therapist: I imagine whole-heartedly going through the pain of a crucifixion just because I want that experience to be taken out of my head and inflicted on my body, so that I am no longer "flirting" with the fantasy, But I would assume that brazenness also comes from something more suicidal, "if it were to end, I would want it to end on a cross." To counter that effect, "life is more about the journey than the destination." To flirt with our masochistic and sadomasochistic fantasies gives us something to live for, to tease our bodies as long as we can take it. I would warn that to truly fetishise torture and death by crucifixion is a more significant sign of seduction by pain driven by empathy remaining from our own painful experiences. And when we say, "crucify me," we are saying something less nihilistic and more challenging to the psyche and the partner.

 

[admihoek]

by an angel.
.

 

[Eulalia]

Here are some thoughts I posted not long ago on the Milestones thread,​

about what drove girls to seek virgin martyrdom -​

they seem relevant to this discussion:​

1 In a male-dominated, macho, militaristic culture, the "battle" in Courtroom, Torture Chamber and Arena was the only site where females could display the prestige qualities of strength and courage. There seems to have been a belief – very widespread in the ancient world – that sexual activity is debilitating, chastity (male and female) conserves physical strength and even confers magical powers.

2 As in many cultures today, girls were betrothed as children, married at puberty, and pregnant in their mid-teens. Seeking martyrdom, like teenage suicide or self-starving, could have been a drastic response to the traumas of adolescence.

3 Again like in many cultures today, virginity was a matter of personal and family honour. Guarding her virginity in the face of all assaults was (is) a way a woman could remain "sole possessor" of her own body.

4 Christian women believed, firmly and literally, that if they died gloriously as martyrs, they would become brides of Christ, enjoying unalloyed (sexual) bliss throughout eternity.

Whether they experienced Torture and death by Crucifixion or other cruel ways in a state of masochistic ecstasy​

of course we can't tell, but what they were going through was deeply associated with their female sexuality,​

with the closely-linked pleasure and pain of being a woman.​

 

[Fantasmo]

Here's a bit of interest more suited for a therapist: I imagine whole-heartedly going through the pain of a crucifixion just because I want that experience to be taken out of my head and inflicted on my body, so that I am no longer "flirting" with the fantasy,

Playing with the imagination is not wrong! Being heavily attracted either! As long as the conscious mind kicks in at some point and makes you understand that it would not be like you imagine.
Taking serious steps to experience "it" isn't necessarily bad.
If you look at what a crucifixion is, everything but the nails can be done more or less safely:
- The scourging
- the via crucis
- attaching to the cross (using ropes or leather restraints)
- lifting the cross to vertical position
- let you hang and suffer the stress of the position

Trading the nails for "being able to do it as many times as you want" sounds like a good deal to me.

But I would assume that brazenness also comes from something more suicidal, "if it were to end, I would want it to end on a cross." To counter that effect, "life is more about the journey than the destination." To flirt with our masochistic and sadomasochistic fantasies gives us something to live for, to tease our bodies as long as we can take it.

I agree...
Specially the "life is more about the journey than the destination". Replace "life" with "crucifixion fantasy" and you get another true statement...

I would warn that to truly fetishise torture and death by crucifixion is a more significant sign of seduction by pain driven by empathy remaining from our own painful experiences. And when we say, "crucify me," we are saying something less nihilistic and more challenging to the psyche and the partner.

Playing with fire...that is. Fascinating, but you can burn yourself if doing it wrong or going to far...

 

[ERIN the Brave]

Practicing both, I can say that , for me, I make a great difference between reality and fantazy...
In reality, I couldn't envisage a practice out off a scenario, discussed between the two partners , a scenario enough definite, perhaps with some improvisations but always under control of the Dom and respecting the limits of the Sum...
In fantazy, I can accept to be harshly tortured , crucified with nails....
I think that I need that, to counterbalance what I can imagine and what I can support in reality, without irrecoverable wounds, as physical than psycological.
I can also think that some people (martyrs, extreme masochits...) can find pleasure (?) (Is it one ?) in great pains, even if their life is menaced : it will be interesting to search testimonies going in this direction...If somebody knows them...

Very well stated!

 

[Deiselad]

I enjoy pain,and Jess loves to inflect it!

I too enjoy nothing more than being stripped of some shirt or t shirt, then tied to a beam; or whatever's handy; and then whipped for a while. Incredibly erotic stuff!

 

[shevak2006]

The crucifixion fantasy works because we never go beyond what pain we can truly handle. And since we must go to work the next day, there can be no long lasting bruising, marks, etc. But consider being crucified, not with our consent but against it, by someone intent on inflicting maximum pain for as long as possible. The historical crucifixion is too horrible to contemplate. I doubt anyone actually nailed to a cross and left to hang ever thought about how erotic it was. Well, maybe the people looking up at her...but that's from a whole different perspective!

 

[admihoek]

ever Read the Jedakk story about Sabina

 

[messaline]

The crucifixion fantasy works because we never go beyond what pain we can truly handle. And since we must go to work the next day, there can be no long lasting bruising, marks, etc.

I think it's not a question of "...what pain we can truly handle...", but what pain we " want" truly handle ; I've made a real crucifixion (with ropes) and believe me, I want to have another one: it's so wonderful !
And marks are quickly deleted if you know the bondage...

 

[Eulalia]

The crucifixion fantasy works because we never go beyond what pain we can truly handle. And since we must go to work the next day, there can be no long lasting bruising, marks, etc. But consider being crucified, not with our consent but against it, by someone intent on inflicting maximum pain for as long as possible. The historical crucifixion is too horrible to contemplate. I doubt anyone actually nailed to a cross and left to hang ever thought about how erotic it was. Well, maybe the people looking up at her...but that's from a whole different perspective!

The difficulty, for this masochist at least, is that the utter helplessness, horror and humiliation of the victim of a real, historical Crucifixion are a big part - the major part - of the erotic excitement I feel as I imagine it and identify myself with the victim. The actual physical pain isn't airbrushed out in my fantasies, but it's not at the heart of them. Acting it out with all the necessary safety precautions, knowing I have to go to work the next day, etc., can't and doesn't recreate any of those emotions, so it doesn't really work for me.

 

[thehangingtree]

The difficulty, for this masochist at least, is that the utter helplessness, horror and humiliation of the victim of a real, historical Crucifixion are a big part - the major part - of the erotic excitement I feel as I imagine it and identify myself with the victim. The actual physical pain isn't airbrushed out in my fantasies, but it's not at the heart of them. Acting it out with all the necessary safety precautions, knowing I have to go to work the next day, etc., can't and doesn't recreate any of those emotions, so it doesn't really work for me.

If I may suggest...
As I have theorized before up to a certain point (and with modern medical knowledge, much of what would have been a fatal injury as little as a decade ago is no longer considered so) the individual moments of being crucified are not fatal events.

The deviant beauty of crucifixion, and to a lesser degree bondage torture, is the in ablity to move and even boredom.

Try being bound on a bed spread-eagle (or do it to your partner). Use the most comfortable restrainrs you can find. I don't know if you have AM radio in Europe but find something that will put out "white noise" - a constant static sound that masks all other noise. Close all shades or blinds and either turn off all the lights or turn them all on. Either way time reference is denied. Br left alone with nothing but the red light of the camera's record staring at you.

You will find that even as little as one hour your masochistic fantasies will have been exceeded....

Tree

 

[admihoek]

or try it in this way....................could be my Connie

 

[shevak2006]

I think it's not a question of "...what pain we can truly handle...", but what pain we " want" truly handle ; I've made a real crucifixion (with ropes) and believe me, I want to have another one: it's so wonderful !
And marks are quickly deleted if you know the bondage...

I've crucified myself too. What an amazing sensation hanging on my cross!!! I attached my feet in a way that made it impossible to free them simply by lifting them up from some some sort of foot support. They were flat against the upright. It was extremely uncomfortable from the very beginning. Had muscle cramps within minutes, a lot of sweating, and constant motion as I traded pain in one place for pain in another. It gave me an incredible erection! What fun!

 

[Yupar]

Practicing both, I can say that , for me, I make a great difference between reality and fantazy...
In reality, I couldn't envisage a practice out off a scenario, discussed between the two partners , a scenario enough definite, perhaps with some improvisations but always under control of the Dom and respecting the limits of the Sum...
In fantazy, I can accept to be harshly tortured , crucified with nails....
I think that I need that, to counterbalance what I can imagine and what I can support in reality, without irrecoverable wounds, as physical than psycological.
I can also think that some people (martyrs, extreme masochits...) can find pleasure (?) (Is it one ?) in great pains, even if their life is menaced : it will be interesting to search testimonies going in this direction...If somebody knows them...

really good..

Thankfully I think most us, if not all who use the forum, realise our particular fantasy is just a fantasy and can never be practiced in reality apart from play between consenting adults within safe limits. Messaline raises an interesting question about whether anyone would have welcomed suffering under the inquisition or some other form of punishment. I suppose those engulfed in some extreme religious fervour might have looked forward to suffering execution with some ecstasy which would have soon disappeared when the real torment began .... We have our own little niche here, its not the only dark fetish, but one which is highly erotic and exciting when kept in its place.

yes...i tought it too.If i face the real pain outside..not sure i can handle it or not n my passion may dissappear too...but in my inner world ,it is always such an erotic feeling 4 me...this niche, i m really glad to find here to rest

 

[Yupar]

Here are some thoughts I posted not long ago on the Milestones thread,​

about what drove girls to seek virgin martyrdom -​

they seem relevant to this discussion:​

1 In a male-dominated, macho, militaristic culture, the "battle" in Courtroom, Torture Chamber and Arena was the only site where females could display the prestige qualities of strength and courage. There seems to have been a belief – very widespread in the ancient world – that sexual activity is debilitating, chastity (male and female) conserves physical strength and even confers magical powers.

2 As in many cultures today, girls were betrothed as children, married at puberty, and pregnant in their mid-teens. Seeking martyrdom, like teenage suicide or self-starving, could have been a drastic response to the traumas of adolescence.

3 Again like in many cultures today, virginity was a matter of personal and family honour. Guarding her virginity in the face of all assaults was (is) a way a woman could remain "sole possessor" of her own body.

4 Christian women believed, firmly and literally, that if they died gloriously as martyrs, they would become brides of Christ, enjoying unalloyed (sexual) bliss throughout eternity.

Whether they experienced Torture and death by Crucifixion or other cruel ways in a state of masochistic ecstasy​

of course we can't tell, but what they were going through was deeply associated with their female sexuality,​

with the closely-linked pleasure and pain of being a woman.​

u r right...no1 especially

 

[Fox-on-Cross]

To read in older topics is not to see the same thoughts as always said but to wonder about the incredible flexibility of our minds always to find (new) ways, (higher) waves and (better) words.

What a happiness to be an human being!

 

[admihoek]

What a happiness to be an human being![/QUOTE]
yep.......another philosophyzing ..................... some wise people told us God created the world and people............... but after the affairs in France I'm pretty sure that people created their Gods.

 

[Fox-on-Cross]

A terrible tragic is that the (most older men and women) skyscraper phantasies definitely not yield nice photographs.

In stead of a whole of half crucifixion one can search for a replacement or compensation, called sublimation (C.G. Jung). When such people discover the Crux Forum they are liberated.