Sponge On a Stick/Spear

[Odraliel]

Hello everyone! I was wondering if some of you would be kind enough to point me in the right direction regarding the practice of watering the crucified. Commonly depicted as a sponge on a spear or similar, I'm curious as to if there was a name for the procedure or items involved. Similar to the terms stipes or cornu, is there such nomenclature for the sponge/spear? I tried to search for it using sponge as a keyword and didn't get much unfortunately.

I'd greatly appreciate any assistance!

 

[Sir Henry]

Hello everyone! I was wondering if some of you would be kind enough to point me in the right direction regarding the practice of watering the crucified. Commonly depicted as a sponge on a spear or similar, I'm curious as to if there was a name for the procedure or items involved. Similar to the terms stipes or cornu, is there such nomenclature for the sponge/spear? I tried to search for it using sponge as a keyword and didn't get much unfortunately.

I'd greatly appreciate any assistance!

Hi Odraliel,

Well, I think I can help:

1.) As we know, giving the crucified person to drink was not for charity, but to prolong suffering on the cross. This was called "restinctio" (= to feed, to quench) or "restinctio sitis" (sitis = thirst) or also called "sitim levare" = "to quench thirst".

2.) There are several terms in Latin for sponge. Those that refer to the cleaning sponge / household sponge (not to be confused with the medical or the mycological rotting sponge) are:
1. spongia (primary term).
2. peniculus (also to use for "brush")
3. fungus (used also with other terms)

The sponge soaked in vinegar or other, which was handed to the crucified on the stick or spear, was the "spongia" in Latin.

I hope this was helpful.
Greetings, Sir Henry

 

[Odraliel]

Hi Odraliel,

Well, I think I can help:

1.) As we know, giving the crucified person to drink was not for charity, but to prolong suffering on the cross. This was called "restinctio" (= to feed, to quench) or "restinctio sitis" (sitis = thirst) or also called "sitim levare" = "to quench thirst".

2.) There are several terms in Latin for sponge. Those that refer to the cleaning sponge / household sponge (not to be confused with the medical or the mycological rotting sponge) are:
1. spongia (primary term).
2. peniculus (also to use for "brush")
3. fungus (used also with other terms)

The sponge soaked in vinegar or other, which was handed to the crucified on the stick or spear, was the "spongia" in Latin.

I hope this was helpful.
Greetings, Sir Henry

This is perfect, exactly what I was looking for! Thank you!

 

[thehangingtree]

Hello everyone! I was wondering if some of you would be kind enough to point me in the right direction regarding the practice of watering the crucified. Commonly depicted as a sponge on a spear or similar, I'm curious as to if there was a name for the procedure or items involved.

Tree doesn't know the proper term other than 'giving them a drink'. When offering them a drink, they will not refuse it whether offered on a sponge on a spear or one tied to a stick. After a few hours stretched on the cross, their will to resist has long passed, especially on a sunny day.

Often the soldiers have spears, needed to guard the condemned from an attempted rescue or (lords' forgive!) an mercy kill. Often they would not have thought to bring a pole or stick to raise the sponge to the prisoner's mouth, so a spear would have to do. It is a wonderful tool for the task. Remember the condemned has her arms and feet nailed to the cross and the point of the spear can make drinking from sponge difficult at best.

There is talk about giving the condemned prisoner wine or vinegar. Remember the wine was brought for the soldiers' refreshment, not the prisoner's. And as for carrying vinegar to the site, why bother? After a few hours hanging from her cross under the blazing sun, she will drink anything.

So drop your trowels and piss on the sponge. She drink anything.

...and it will remind her what you think of her!

 

[Eulalia]

Hello everyone! I was wondering if some of you would be kind enough to point me in the right direction regarding the practice of watering the crucified. Commonly depicted as a sponge on a spear or similar, I'm curious as to if there was a name for the procedure or items involved. Similar to the terms stipes or cornu, is there such nomenclature for the sponge/spear? I tried to search for it using sponge as a keyword and didn't get much unfortunately.

I'd greatly appreciate any assistance!

The Gospels that mention the drinks in the Passion narrative are Matthew, chapter 27, and Mark, ch. 15; there are two separate incidents that tend to get muddled together:

1. when Jesus arrives at Golgotha, he is offered 'wine mixed with gall, but when he tasted it, he would not drink it',
2. around the ninth hour, after Jesus had cried out 'my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?' , one of the bystanders 'ran and got a sponge, filled it with sour wine, put it on a stick, and gave it to him to drink'

The Greek words for 'wine mixed with gall' are oinos meta cholēs memigmenon (literally 'mixed with bile', but probably some bitter herb used to dull pain: Mark says the wine is esmyrnismenon, 'mixed with myrrh')
The sponge is spongos, the sour wine or vinegar is oksos, the stick is kalamos (literally 'a reed', but used for any straight stick)

The sponge soaked in vinegar or other, which was handed to the crucified on the stick or spear, was the "spongia" in Latin.

And the stick, in the Latin Vulgate Bible, is arundo (harundo in Classical Latin), which, like Greek kalamos, is literally 'a reed'.

 

[Sir Henry]

I would like to give the urgent advice to be careful with such translations from "Greek"!
The reason ist this:
From the Latin language of the ancient Romans, it was unfortunately translated into Greek, whereby the back-translation entails an immensely large source of error, because Greek is not equal to Greek: In historical-linguistic terms, we are dealing with two very different languages, namely Ancient Greek and Modern Greek.
Ancient Greek was the language of antiquely (classical) Greece and was spoken in many other areas in antiquity. It is not easy to understand and correctly translate works from Ancient Greek, because between Ancient Greek and Modern Greek there was (is) a third language form, namely "Koiné Greek".
Koiné was a supra-regional common language from Hellenism to the Roman imperial period (around 300 BC to 600 AD).
Now, one might think that this would be rather insignificant, but the opposite is the case: this transitional language form is of utmost importance because the New Testament was written almost entirely in Koiné, i.e. the exact part of the Bible that is fundamental for Christians!
With such complex and, moreover, historically time-delayed translations, misunderstandings, translation errors and misinterpretations are inevitable, not to mention the many ancient dialects...

* * *

@ Odraliel: Here are a few further Latin terms in the context of "thirst at the cross":

thirsty: ieiunus
vinegar: acetum
apple vinegar: acetum malum
Wine vinegar: acetum vinarius (or just "acetum")
herb: herba
herbs: herbidus
medicinal herb: herba operosa
pain: dolor
to cause pain: dolere (also: to feel pain)
juice, decoction: suc[c]us
to spit on, to spit at: sputare
piss: lotium / urina
spear: hasta / telum
lance: lancea

 

[Eulalia]

I would like to give the urgent advice to be careful with such translations from "Greek"!

I'm quoting from the Greek New Testament in the Nestle-Aland critical edition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novum_Testamentum_Graece
The Latin arundo is from Jerome's Vulgate, where it is dative, arundini.

 

[Sir Henry]

I'm quoting from the Greek New Testament in the Nestle-Aland (27th) edition.

That is correct, Eulalia:
The "Nestle", the work of Barbara and Kurt Aland, is internationally recognised as an official translation and, above all, also takes into account the Koiné.
The Nestle-Aland editions are considered very reliable and are even regarded as an official source in the Vatican (which does not mean much, however).

 

[Odraliel]

Excellent information and discourse from all of you, thank you! It will undoubtedly provide fantastic assistance in my efforts to translate the practice into a fantasy setting.

And of course the situational descriptions from Mister Tree are tantalizing as always!

 

[Barabbas]

Hello everyone! I was wondering if some of you would be kind enough to point me in the right direction regarding the practice of watering the crucified. Commonly depicted as a sponge on a spear or similar, I'm curious as to if there was a name for the procedure or items involved. Similar to the terms stipes or cornu, is there such nomenclature for the sponge/spear? I tried to search for it using sponge as a keyword and didn't get much unfortunately.

I'd greatly appreciate any assistance!

The drink was called Posca. Posca was an Ancient Roman drink made by mixing wine, vinegar and water. Bracing but less nutritious and palatable than wine, it was typically a drink for soldiers, the lower classes, and slaves.

 

[PhilX]

Interesting to see the sponge mentioned.

Here is an extract from my account of the crucifixion regarding the sponge bit;



“Sir, the Nazarene is trying to speak.” the optio interrupted.
“What’s he saying?”
“I’ll go closer.”
The optio returned, “Sir, he says he is thirsty, I could only just make out the words.”


“Ha, so are we all!” snapped the centurion, “You!” this to a guard standing nearby, “Fetch us water, and something for that Nazarene bastard, he says he is thirsty - you know the score.”


“Yes sir!” grinned the guard, this was always an invitation for yet more torment for those being crucified.


Whilst one of the guards went to get a fresh flask of water for the officers another group went off to find the means to cause Yeshua more cruelty.


At the wagon one pulled out a pilum, “Not a pilum you idiot it’s not long enough, find a spear!” another shouted whilst another pulled on a gauntlet to handle the disgusting sponges in a bucket, these had been taken from the latrines that morning and from being in the sun were dry and hard and smeared with dried faeces - their use was wiping backsides. One had been recently used and was moist and pliable it was also smeared with fresh shit, the guard lifted this one out with his gloved hand. “He’s afraid of a bit of shit!” laughed a guard standing behind.


“What shall we offer the bastard? Piss or wine?”
“He had a good mouthful of piss an hour or two ago, let’s give him the wine.”


By ‘wine’ the guards were referring to a flagon of very strong harsh vinegar that they used for cleaning their chain mail.


The group returned to gather beneath Yeshua’s cross. Some of the people watching got up to see what the guards were about to do, they suspected it would involve more unpleasant treatment for the hated Nazarene.


“Hey Your Majesty! Are you thirsty?” one of the guards shouted up to Yeshua. “Well we have some lovely water here.” he took a long swig from a flask and passed it on to the guard next to him. “Aah, that’s marvelous it really gets the dust out of the mouth,”


The whole group of guards in turn took long swigs from the flask. “Want some?” Yeshua watched them enjoying the water, his mouth so dry he couldn’t reply.


“Too late, some of these folk would like some.” And the flask was passed to the people nearby sitting on the ground.


Now the guard with his gloved hand pierced the filthy sponge onto the blade of the spear and handed it to another who was taller. He went to stand under Yeshua “Well maybe you can make your own drink.” he called up. Then he waved the sponge under Yeshua’s penis, “Come on! Piss on the sponge!” All the other guards and many of the people watching were roaring with laughter. “Come on, piss! You must be needing a drink!” goaded the guard waving the sponge about. Then he pressed it hard against Yeshua’s swollen penis, the sharp blade gashing a deep cut in the engorged glans. “Can’t piss? Then we have some wine to offer you!”


The men then poured some of the vinegar into an earthen cup and soaked the sponge in it. The tall guard then raised the sponge up towards Yeshua’s lips. On the way he dabbed the sponge against Yeshua’s bleeding penis, the stinging pain caused Yeshua to let out a loud gasp. “Come on drink!” the guard shouted as he waved the sponge in front of Yeshua’s face.


It was impossible, the sponge was being waved around too much for Yeshua to manage to suck the liquid, he thrust his head forward and side to side in vain trying to reach it, everyone laughed at the ridiculous sight of his failed efforts. As it moved pass close to his nose he could smell the shit, with a groan he realised where the sponge had been taken from, yet as he was so desperate to moisten his lips and mouth he struggled to suck it.


After a while of this torment the guard with the spear held the sponge steady and within reach. “Drink! Drink the wine Your Majesty!” he called up.


Ignoring the harsh smell of the vinegar mixed with faeces, Yeshua eagerly leant forward to suck the liquid, the sharp blade within the sponge gashed his lips but he was so desperate to moisten his mouth and tongue that he ignored the disgusting taste and pain of the acid on his cut lips.


Soon the guard’s arm was aching too much to hold the spear up, “That’s all you’re getting!” he shouted. Yeshua rolled his head back against the stipes as the vinegar burned its way down his gullet. “Father let this torment stop I beg of you.” he muttered to himself.


Suddenly the sun broke through the dark clouds and a shaft of light illuminated Yeshua on his cross. The sight was all the more dramatic because it seemed only he was in the light and the brightness was stark against the black clouds behind.

 

[Blackoldbull]

I suppose I see it as a moment of compassion by the executioner. Perhaps he allows some of the girls friends to tend to her briefly. A drink, a word of pity, perhaps her face wiped with a damp cloth. Then they are gone and her suffering continues.

 

[DirkZ]

Tree doesn't know the proper term other than 'giving them a drink'. When offering them a drink, they will not refuse it whether offered on a sponge on a spear or one tied to a stick. After a few hours stretched on the cross, their will to resist has long passed, especially on a sunny day.
View attachment 1330423
Often the soldiers have spears, needed to guard the condemned from an attempted rescue or (lords' forgive!) an mercy kill. Often they would not have thought to bring a pole or stick to raise the sponge to the prisoner's mouth, so a spear would have to do. It is a wonderful tool for the task. Remember the condemned has her arms and feet nailed to the cross and the point of the spear can make drinking from sponge difficult at best.
View attachment 1330426
There is talk about giving the condemned prisoner wine or vinegar. Remember the wine was brought for the soldiers' refreshment, not the prisoner's. And as for carrying vinegar to the site, why bother? After a few hours hanging from her cross under the blazing sun, she will drink anything.
View attachment 1330425
So drop your trowels and piss on the sponge. She drink anything.
View attachment 1330424
...and it will remind her what you think of her!

As erotic or interesting as an idea to keep a crucified person alive longer on the cross, how much hydration could someone sweating heavily on the cross effectively get from a sponge on a stick/spear? A sponge would provide at best a mouthful or so of liquid replenishment. Would this be of any real benefit? Crucified persons have already lost considerable water prior to being crucified from scourging and the effort to carry their crossbeams. Then on the cross from pissing, bleeding, sweating, etc.

I wonder, how much water replenishment is actually necessary to significantly keep someone alive longer. It must be quarts/liters over the course of a day of hanging. Even giving a condemned person plenty of water/posca prior to being nailed to a cross would not be enough to offset water loss over a day or more of hanging. They might even vomit it up if too much is given too quickly.

Offering a crucified person (as pictured) any liquid from a sponge is more to humiliate them further as the crucified person is suffering from extreme thirst and may well gulp down any kind of liquid offered them--muddy water or even piss.

"Look, look, she's drinking piss! Ha, ha! Stupid bitch!"

Maybe a small amount of liquid could contain a drug that might extend her sufferings significantly. But to really replenish actual water loss might require someone on a ladder offering water poured into her mouth from, say, a wineskin. A lot of work on a hot day for someone so tasked if multiple persons have been crucified.

Whatever, it is indeed a highly erotic image when a crucified woman is offered water and so much of it ends up pouring down over her chest and boobs. It's just more torture for her. She begs for more and more only to be denied!

 

[Eulalia]

I'm sure you're right. Realistically, keeping someone alive in that situation would surely require more or less continuous rehydration - the sponge offered to Jesus after he said he was thirsty would have only moistened his lips and mouth, and may have contained some drug. He apparently died almost immediately, And while his death seems to have been earlier than expected (the other two men were still alive), in most cases death must surely have come within a matter of hours - though there are credible records of some living for much longer, they'd hardly have been conscious or compos mentis.

 

[DirkZ]

As erotic or interesting as an idea to keep a crucified person alive longer on the cross, how much hydration could someone sweating heavily on the cross effectively get from a sponge on a stick/spear? A sponge would provide at best a mouthful or so of liquid replenishment. Would this be of any real benefit? Crucified persons have already lost considerable water prior to being crucified from scourging and the effort to carry their crossbeams. Then on the cross from pissing, bleeding, sweating, etc.

I wonder, how much water replenishment is actually necessary to significantly keep someone alive longer. It must be quarts/liters over the course of a day of hanging. Even giving a condemned person plenty of water/posca prior to being nailed to a cross would not be enough to offset water loss over a day or more of hanging. They might even vomit it up if too much is given too quickly.

Offering a crucified person (as pictured) any liquid from a sponge is more to humiliate them further as the crucified person is suffering from extreme thirst and may well gulp down any kind of liquid offered them--muddy water or even piss.

"Look, look, she's drinking piss! Ha, ha! Stupid bitch!"

Maybe a small amount of liquid could contain a drug that might extend her sufferings significantly. But to really replenish actual water loss might require someone on a ladder offering water poured into her mouth from, say, a wineskin. A lot of work on a hot day for someone so tasked if multiple persons have been crucified.

Whatever, it is indeed a highly erotic image when a crucified woman is offered water and so much of it ends up pouring down over her chest and boobs. It's just more torture for her. She begs for more and more only to be denied!

For a contemporary crucifixion a garden hose at the execution site would provide all the water necessary: for cooling the crucified person off during the heat of the day and, when attached to the end of a stick or pole, for bringing a steady stream of water to the open mouth of one hanging.

(Fuck! There's one annoying fly buzzing around me as I type this. I can brush the annoying little fucker away but trying to imagine a crucified person being buzzed by maybe hundreds of flies and utterly unable to do anything about it sounds like a special kind of awful torture on top of everything else!)