Messaline is wondering ...

[messaline]

It is possible that the 'victim' decided that this was something she wanted to do and therefore neither myself nor Messaline should judge her about her desires. After all our desires would be considered perverse by many people.

Oh yes ! You're right on this point ; beeing not able to support that, I never had thought that it could be possible !
But I wonder how a woman ( or a man , why not ?) can go to this level of sufferings , though that by the past, the christian martyrs , for example, knew well what they could risk if they were persisting into their faith ! (Often an horrible death ! )

To take it away from our community I know a woman who works for a domestic violence prevention organization.

From time to time, I "work" in such of association ( reception of raped women ) and I try to assist them for the demarches that they've to do to file a claim ... But I'm always astonished by the fact that they're generally scared in doing that ... like if they were under some addiction !
Fortunatelly , it's changing step to step but it's showing that somebody can be entirely under the domination of another'one and I was wondering if these kinds of women could also be ... ( in the video , of course )
Well, you're right willofal in saying that we do be prudent before judging , but I'm always uncomfortable when I see that or when somebody tells me that he/she can support this level of pain ...

I know Messaline to be a strong person who will tell you when she is offended and when she has been out of line.

Thanks ! But you know well what are my motivations in playing in BDSM ( a love'reciprocation between my partner and I ) : so, it's out of question to get over some acceptable limits and out of question of always searching to go farer ...
... And it's so much gratifying when, on the monday, I yet wear the whip'marks hidden under my clothes !

 

[Gibbs505]

I think part of the problem with a video like this is the question of whether or not it is consensual. Depending on our personal preferences we choose to believe based on our perceptions not actually facts.

And as Messaline points out it can give a false overview of our entire community.

Neither Messaline nor I would be in a relationship with a Mistress\Master who treated us like that because we wouldn't consent to be treated like that. However, that being said since the Dear Messaline and I have never been in a session together (that we know of) I have no way of knowing if what I like she considers "too hard or violent" and she has no way to know if what she likes I consider too soft.

It is possible that the 'victim' decided that this was something she wanted to do and therefore neither myself nor Messaline should judge her about her desires. After all our desires would be considered perverse by many people.

To take it away from our community I know a woman who works for a domestic violence prevention organization. To her all sex workers are victims of a crime or oppression (usually by men). The fact that many porn producers are women, and generally women are paid more than men in the porn industry makes no impression on her. I KNOW commercial sex workers who not only don't feel abused or oppressed they are among the strongest most self-assertive women I know. They honestly enjoy their work.

One of the sex workers I know made a pretty good living (she had to get out of the industry being too "old" at 30) sitting on food (like cakes). I don't get it but she made good money smashing cakes with her butt (nice butt too).

Isn't it said "One man's perversion is another man's kinky"?

So to get to my point the long way around, as a community we need to be more tolerant of things we don't like. By that I mean we don't censor each other, if there is a conversation thread we don't like or find disturbing we should just move on. There are plenty of other things to do here. But that also means we don't go around apologizing for what we like, after all we are all here because we CAN'T have these conversations at our workplace, or on holiday with our parents or at a society cocktail party.

I know Messaline to be a strong person who will tell you when she is offended and when she has been out of line.

All bets are off if what we saw in that video was non-consensual, then it becomes a crime.

kisses

willowfall

Great post, very much my experience as well.
Not the porn but I worked as a volunteer on a crisis line for a year.

 

[Gibbs505]

Oh yes ! You're right on this point ; beeing not able to support that, I never had thought that it could be possible !
But I wonder how a woman ( or a man , why not ?) can go to this level of sufferings , though that by the past, the christian martyrs , for example, knew well what they could risk if they were persisting into their faith ! (Often an horrible death ! )



From time to time, I "work" in such of association ( reception of raped women ) and I try to assist them for the demarches that they've to do to file a claim ... But I'm always astonished by the fact that they're generally scared in doing that ... like if they were under some addiction !
Fortunatelly , it's changing step to step but it's showing that somebody can be entirely under the domination of another'one and I was wondering if these kinds of women could also be ... ( in the video , of course )
Well, you're right willofal in saying that we do be prudent before judging , but I'm always uncomfortable when I see that or when somebody tells me that he/she can support this level of pain ...


Thanks ! But you know well what are my motivations in playing in BDSM ( a love'reciprocation between my partner and I ) : so, it's out of question to get over some acceptable limits and out of question of always searching to go farer ...
... And it's so much gratifying when, on the monday, I yet wear the whip'marks hidden under my clothes !

You make very good points as well Messaline.

 

[bakerboy]

After branding , a slave is tested for response to stimuli in order to determine if she becomes "upstairs or downstairs" or God forbid a hard labor slave:

 

[windar]

I think part of the problem with a video like this is the question of whether or not it is consensual. Depending on our personal preferences we choose to believe based on our perceptions not actually facts.

Consensual/non-consensual is not always black and white. Sure, there are the clearly non-consensual-the prisoner in some tyrannical regime, the kidnapped victim-and there are the clearly consensual. But there's an awful lot of room in between. There are people in desperate need of money-perhaps drug addicts, perhaps single mothers without resources, refugees, etc.-who may "consent" to a whole range of things for the right amount of cash. And there are all kinds of psychological manipulations that those who are very skilled in those arts can practice on the vulnerable. Cults for example are able to keep a great many members in line despite them being nominally free to come and go. Barb and I even wrote a story about that, if you're interested.

So as far as these films or the sex workers you cite, there is a whole range of situations from the high class call girls who take it on as a lucrative career and the street person desperate for their next fix. In between (and even at the extremes) motives are mixed and messy as human beings generally are.

 

[Crux-Emperor Baracus X]

After branding , a slave is tested for response to stimuli in order to determine if she becomes "upstairs or downstairs" or God forbid a hard labor slave:

I'd like to volunteer for the job of slave testing....PLEEEASE !!

 

[willowfall]

Oh yes ! You're right on this point ; beeing not able to support that, I never had thought that it could be possible !
But I wonder how a woman ( or a man , why not ?) can go to this level of sufferings , though that by the past, the christian martyrs , for example, knew well what they could risk if they were persisting into their faith ! (Often an horrible death ! )

Oh I agree 100%. I can't fathom why someone would WANT to be whipped into unconsciousness voluntarily. It is one thing to go bravely to your death for a cause you believe in. It is another to do it for money or pleasure.

One of the crux groups I used to belong to had a woman in it who claimed she had allowed herself to be nailed to a cross (once) by a rich man for money to get herself out of a bad situation (I assumed domestic). I do know women who have taken up stripping (and a little prostitution on the side) to support themselves so I suppose it isn't too far of a stretch to do something dangerous (or stupid) for money.

From time to time, I "work" in such of association ( reception of raped women ) and I try to assist them for the demarches that they've to do to file a claim ... But I'm always astonished by the fact that they're generally scared in doing that ... like if they were under some addiction !
Fortunatelly , it's changing step to step but it's showing that somebody can be entirely under the domination of another'one and I was wondering if these kinds of women could also be ... ( in the video , of course )
Well, you're right willofal in saying that we do be prudent before judging , but I'm always uncomfortable when I see that or when somebody tells me that he/she can support this level of pain ...

This in my mind is a completely different situation. Rape is pretty easy to define, I said "No" (before you did it not after) and you went ahead anyway. Crime. But we women HAVE to be willing to stand up face our assailant and demand justice otherwise they will continue to do it.

I'm not naive, I know there are porn actresses and commercial sex workers who do it because they are forced too. That is a crime and needs to be eradicated.

But as a consenting adult, if I choose to do something to myself, I don't want the government (or some busy body) to say I can't.

Thanks ! But you know well what are my motivations in playing in BDSM ( a love'reciprocation between my partner and I ) : so, it's out of question to get over some acceptable limits and out of question of always searching to go farer ...
... And it's so much gratifying when, on the monday, I yet wear the whip'marks hidden under my clothes !

We are both lucky to be in a loving relationship that includes BDSM. And that is built on trust (isn't all loving relationships?).

And we both struggle to make people understand we aren't "perverted" so both of us do get angry when people screw up and give us a bad name (as a group).

As too whip marks, got to be careful there. I like wearing minimal clothing because I actually like the cold so too high up prevents a plunging neckline or going backless and if there is too much bruising the clothes have to be less opaque.

kisses

willowfall

 

[messaline]

One of the crux groups I used to belong to had a woman in it who claimed she had allowed herself to be nailed to a cross (once) by a rich man

Connie ( Erin the brave ) no doubt ...

This in my mind is a completely different situation.

Right but rape includes also a situation of dependance ...

As too whip marks, got to be careful there. I like wearing minimal clothing because I actually like the cold so too high up prevents a plunging neckline or going backless and if there is too much bruising the clothes have to be less opaque.

I'm relatively prudent in this domain but I like to think that they could be discovered ... ... and I do that mainly in winter when my clothes are longer ...

 

[Crux-Emperor Baracus X]

@willowfall & @messaline both raised good points....

 

[hankstr]

Do you find the late afternoon sun warm, my old friend, as your beautiful form is displayed in the slave pits?

 

[messaline]

Hello Hankstr! You're coming back !
Mmmmmm ! I prefer when the night is coming : I dont like the warm ...

 

[willowfall]

Right but rape includes also a situation of dependance ...

In the US a girl has (according to the PC crowd) the right to claim that it was the guy's fault if she is too drunk to make a rational decision.

I have a friend in Amsterdam whose attitude is "Bullshit, if I'm stupid enough to get that drunk, that's on me not the guy." (One reason I love European women they are both sexier and more mature\responsible about they way they approach men.)

But I see your point.

I'm relatively prudent in this domain but I like to think that they could be discovered ... ... and I do that mainly in winter when my clothes are longer ...

I too relish the thought of getting caught but I work with a lot of lawyers who are far too self-righteous and they would decide what is an appropriate relationship between me and my partner. I love her too much to be the cause of any trouble for her by busy bodies.

kiss

willowfall

 

[RacingRodent]

In the US a girl has (according to the PC crowd) the right to claim that it was the guy's fault if she is too drunk to make a rational decision.

I have a friend in Amsterdam whose attitude is "Bullshit, if I'm stupid enough to get that drunk, that's on me not the guy." (One reason I love European women they are both sexier and more mature\responsible about they way they approach men.)

This may be coming as news to you but taking advantage of someone who is drunk in order to rape them is a crime in most European jurisdictions too. If a person cannot consent because of age or inebriation or any other impairment it is rape. If someone is under threat of intimidation it is rape even if the intimidation is not a gun or a knife in their face but something along the lines of the rapist claiming to have blackmail on the target or their family, it is rape.

If a guy rapes someone it is rape. If his excuse is "but I was not violent" yeah it is still rape, if his excuse is "She was drunk and wearing slutty clothes" it is still rape. If his excuse is "hey but he is another guy" still rape. If his excuse is "Hey I go online as a woman" still rape. Rape is always on the rapist not the survivor of the rape. In one rather rare case the defence was "Hey I cannot rape someone because I am woman, so what if I kidnapped him and bound him to a bed against his will"...turns out a court decided, still rape.

Maybe where you come from men are weak deranged creatures with less self control than most mammals but among civilised men a modicum of self-control is a thing. It is really easy to not rape someone. If you are not sure, don't have sex it is not like sex is really that hard to come by for the moderately socially acceptable. The thing is though even if it was incredibly hard to come by sex is not a right. One cannot simply decide another person is available and that they are just going to take them.

If someone is drunk then they are drunk but still not given away their right not to be raped. Also there are quite a few reasons that someone might be having an episode they appear drunk, maybe hypoglycaemia maybe narcolepsy. Your apparent argument that drunk people are fair game is off the wall.

Also before we get into the bullshit that actually observing rules of consent would prevent BDSM that is bullshit both morally and legally. The guilty secret at the heart of BDSM is that true followers of BDSM practices take consent way more seriously than most casual vanilla types. That is what the concept of safe words is about, that is what prior discussion of agreed boundaries is about, that is what phony non-legally binding contracts (something I am a personal fan of but do not imagine to be real) are about.

Finding a drunk, is not consent, getting someone drunk is not getting their consent.

Yet consent is really fucking easy to gauge in most cases. Most of us can manage to go yay far and stop when the other person says no, or stop or pink elephants depending on circumstances. Not only that but if you get to know the person you are with and even when hooking up it typically does not take that long, you usually have a good idea of what is a come on.

The vast majority of men will never try and rape anyone in the course of their entire lives. Sexual predators sadly will typically carry out numerous assaults before they even experience their first instance of getting charged and even those charged will frequently avoid conviction. So it not like the law is actually biased against men in general (because yeah most of us don't rape) or even as it turns out actual rapists (because yeah most of them will escape).

So if you feel the need to pretend otherwise that says something really negative about you.

 

[Praefectus Praetorio]

This may be coming as news to you but taking advantage of someone who is drunk in order to rape them is a crime in most European jurisdictions too. If a person cannot consent because of age or inebriation or any other impairment it is rape. If someone is under threat of intimidation it is rape even if the intimidation is not a gun or a knife in their face but something along the lines of the rapist claiming to have blackmail on the target or their family, it is rape.

If a guy rapes someone it is rape. If his excuse is "but I was not violent" yeah it is still rape, if his excuse is "She was drunk and wearing slutty clothes" it is still rape. If his excuse is "hey but he is another guy" still rape. If his excuse is "Hey I go online as a woman" still rape. Rape is always on the rapist not the survivor of the rape. In one rather rare case the defence was "Hey I cannot rape someone because I am woman, so what if I kidnapped him and bound him to a bed against his will"...turns out a court decided, still rape.

Maybe where you come from men are weak deranged creatures with less self control than most mammals but among civilised men a modicum of self-control is a thing. It is really easy to not rape someone. If you are not sure, don't have sex it is not like sex is really that hard to come by for the moderately socially acceptable. The thing is though even if it was incredibly hard to come by sex is not a right. One cannot simply decide another person is available and that they are just going to take them.

If someone is drunk then they are drunk but still not given away their right not to be raped. Also there are quite a few reasons that someone might be having an episode they appear drunk, maybe hypoglycaemia maybe narcolepsy. Your apparent argument that drunk people are fair game is off the wall.

Also before we get into the bullshit that actually observing rules of consent would prevent BDSM that is bullshit both morally and legally. The guilty secret at the heart of BDSM is that true followers of BDSM practices take consent way more seriously than most casual vanilla types. That is what the concept of safe words is about, that is what prior discussion of agreed boundaries is about, that is what phony non-legally binding contracts (something I am a personal fan of but do not imagine to be real) are about.

Finding a drunk, is not consent, getting someone drunk is not getting their consent.

Yet consent is really fucking easy to gauge in most cases. Most of us can manage to go yay far and stop when the other person says no, or stop or pink elephants depending on circumstances. Not only that but if you get to know the person you are with and even when hooking up it typically does not take that long, you usually have a good idea of what is a come on.

The vast majority of men will never try and rape anyone in the course of their entire lives. Sexual predators sadly will typically carry out numerous assaults before they even experience their first instance of getting charged and even those charged will frequently avoid conviction. So it not like the law is actually biased against men in general (because yeah most of us don't rape) or even as it turns out actual rapists (because yeah most of them will escape).

So if you feel the need to pretend otherwise that says something really negative about you.

Rodent, why don't you say how you really feel.

On the one hand I agree with about 95% of what you say. When a person is not able to make a free, informed decision about having sex, it it rape on the part of the other to go ahead and use them. No question.

Where I come from (and maybe this is what Willow meant [not to put word in her mouth]) is that today an uncomfortably large number of people are crying rape after the fact based on situations that are not so clearly rape. Two college students who have had an affair going for months, come back from a party, both quite tipsy. However, both are conscious and seemingly acting as responsible adults. They go to bed and have intercourse. Maybe the girl says no once or twice and then stops objecting and participates fully. A week later, when she see him with another girl they fight and break up. She talks to her friends and decides he raped her. She complains to the college. Without any further ability to challenger her story, he is suspended and loses the semester of work. He is not allowed to question her or her claims. A board decides that she was drunk and expels him. It is never taken to the police since there is no good evidence of a crime. The boy has his college career ruined, cannot find another college which will accept him with this on his record.

 

[Praefectus Praetorio]

This may be coming as news to you but taking advantage of someone who is drunk in order to rape them is a crime in most European jurisdictions too. If a person cannot consent because of age or inebriation or any other impairment it is rape. If someone is under threat of intimidation it is rape even if the intimidation is not a gun or a knife in their face but something along the lines of the rapist claiming to have blackmail on the target or their family, it is rape.

If a guy rapes someone it is rape. If his excuse is "but I was not violent" yeah it is still rape, if his excuse is "She was drunk and wearing slutty clothes" it is still rape. If his excuse is "hey but he is another guy" still rape. If his excuse is "Hey I go online as a woman" still rape. Rape is always on the rapist not the survivor of the rape. In one rather rare case the defence was "Hey I cannot rape someone because I am woman, so what if I kidnapped him and bound him to a bed against his will"...turns out a court decided, still rape.

Maybe where you come from men are weak deranged creatures with less self control than most mammals but among civilised men a modicum of self-control is a thing. It is really easy to not rape someone. If you are not sure, don't have sex it is not like sex is really that hard to come by for the moderately socially acceptable. The thing is though even if it was incredibly hard to come by sex is not a right. One cannot simply decide another person is available and that they are just going to take them.

If someone is drunk then they are drunk but still not given away their right not to be raped. Also there are quite a few reasons that someone might be having an episode they appear drunk, maybe hypoglycaemia maybe narcolepsy. Your apparent argument that drunk people are fair game is off the wall.

Also before we get into the bullshit that actually observing rules of consent would prevent BDSM that is bullshit both morally and legally. The guilty secret at the heart of BDSM is that true followers of BDSM practices take consent way more seriously than most casual vanilla types. That is what the concept of safe words is about, that is what prior discussion of agreed boundaries is about, that is what phony non-legally binding contracts (something I am a personal fan of but do not imagine to be real) are about.

Finding a drunk, is not consent, getting someone drunk is not getting their consent.

Yet consent is really fucking easy to gauge in most cases. Most of us can manage to go yay far and stop when the other person says no, or stop or pink elephants depending on circumstances. Not only that but if you get to know the person you are with and even when hooking up it typically does not take that long, you usually have a good idea of what is a come on.

The vast majority of men will never try and rape anyone in the course of their entire lives. Sexual predators sadly will typically carry out numerous assaults before they even experience their first instance of getting charged and even those charged will frequently avoid conviction. So it not like the law is actually biased against men in general (because yeah most of us don't rape) or even as it turns out actual rapists (because yeah most of them will escape).

So if you feel the need to pretend otherwise that says something really negative about you.

Also, though I hate blaming the victim, is it out of line to tell girls that if they get roaring drunk with no friends around and wearing their sexiest clothes, that they might be in danger of rape from that small but present % of men who are evil? It is no different than me at 70, not walking at 2AM in the seediest bar row when the biker gangs are in town..

 

[thehangingtree]

There is the '#me too' movement in the the US that I'm sure some, maybe many, women were between less than willing to raped participants in sex. I also think there is the cloud of history and new age rethinking that fuzzies a lot of this up. I don't care to go further here unless Messa is OK... It is her thread.

 

[messaline]

There is the '#me too' movement in the the US that I'm sure some, maybe many, women were between less than willing to raped participants in sex. I also think there is the cloud of history and new age rethinking that fuzzies a lot of this up. I don't care to go further here unless Messa is OK... It is her thread.

Oh, you know me , Tree : I'm always glad when a discussion is started even if it's not really the topic of the thread ...
What I ask is only that it stays a true and interesting discussion .

 

[messaline]

I find that speaking about relations coming in a drunkeness'condition is a little too much restricted : in France , and all the south european countries, we are inheriting of a "mâle" ( patriarcal ) culture and women are yet too much submitted to the male'rule, even if it's actually changing ; in many cities , the girls cant wear a mini skirt in the street , without to be view like "easy girls" ( filles faciles ) , even prostitutes !
In France, there are yet around of 150 / 180 viols each year ( for those which are known !) !
More and more , many people begin to fight these bad view showing women like men'preys , fortunatelly , but we've yet much work to do that accredited ...
I like to be sexy and in summer , to wear a mini skirt : generally, I've not problems but , from time to time, I see well some insistent sights , or even some remarks not always welcomed ...
But I hope in the future and be assured , men of CF, that even if here I like sometimes to play a victim, I'm not in reality ... I try, at least ...

 

[Gibbs505]

I have certainly said and made more than my share of dumb or inappropriate things in my life but I have never been physically out of line with a woman or, let alone, a man!
Yet, most of these were done in a time and place where they were generally accepted by society at large. Should I be judged on these by today's standards?
I would stress that I have never struck or harmed a woman except in the course of a BDSM session, where the submissive's limits were respected and honored.
Messaline I would love for you to be my 'victum'!

 

[Crux-Emperor Baracus X]

I have certainly said and made more than my share of dumb or inappropriate things in my life but I have never been physically out of line with a woman or, let alone, a man!
Yet, most of these were done in a time and place where they were generally accepted by society at large. Should I be judged on these by today's standards?
I would stress that I have never struck or harmed a woman except in the course of a BDSM session, where the submissive's limits were respected and honored.
Messaline I would love for you to be my 'victum'!

@Gibbs505 ...I concur.
As much as I love and adore women,I'm always socially awkward around them,to the point that I'm perpetually frustrated.
I'm now in the Autumn of my lifespan and becoming resigned to the fact that I'll never achieve any of my sexual ambitions.
Although my thoughts are quite deviant,in reality I couldn't bring myself to commit an act of Rape (even if it's consensual role-play)
nor would I raise my hand to a woman,i take my frustration out on inanimate objects...
I'm VERY conscientious and morally sound.
(try telling that to my perverse thoughts !!)
Having been unsuccessfully married yeah we've had fights, arguments,and all that jazz.
Ironically in real life most of my best friends are female and yeah I love them dearly....
but still I go home alone and take my kink into my own hands,(you know what I mean)
I'm shit at finding anyone who's not accounted for,and who's willing to "experiment" in the bedroom,so to speak....
I get this syndrome in that women are an alien species,compared to me,(yeah bullshit I know....!!) but try being in MY shoes,and putting up with a permanent feeling of inadequacy and zero-confidence....deafness & loneliness sucks !! Its got to the point that I feel that I'm neither young,attractive muscular nor well-endowed,pretty pathetic really.
(which no doubt goes a long way to explain my fantasies revolving around being a near naked slave condemned to crucifixion??)
What I'd give to have a slow dance,a snog and a bit of fun afterwards....looks like that bird has flown,but I STILL have some small hope,that one day....perhaps ??
(sorry to ramble on,and hopefully it's not too off-topic ??)
Ok I've said my bit,and I'll let you get on with things. Safe Crux...TX
Oh...and one more thing....
40 years ago this month I was sexually assaulted by an older Homosexual and was (whilst under duress) forced to commit Fellatio....Even though I couldn't finish him off (so to speak)...I can quite understand a woman's point of view regarding blow jobs,and it's unfortunately shaped my attitude towards certain members of the male population, as I'm not in any way that way inclined,I'm a strictly Heterosexual person.....!!
(this is the first time I've gone public regarding my experience.....ok ?? )